D&D (2024) 5e 2024 Skills

[Yaarel]

Because DMs have total say about which skills to call for, when, and how to adjudicate them, even choosing whichever ability is most suitable for a particular skill in context − modifying the skill list is actually Rules-As-Written.

"The 5e skills is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules."

Even when a setting formalizes and formats a specific way of running a list of skills, this is only what will be typically true. There will still be situational circumstances where the DM will utilize a skill in an unusual way, or call for whichever ability is most appropriate for it.


Gross motor skills are an indivisible entity. The Reflex-Athletics ability is the same concept, and needs to be one thing in the same place.

I was pleased to find out at DNDBeyond, it is easy to customize a skill by keying it off a different ability. Namely Athletics is a "Dex" skill. Also use Athletics for landing a fall and balancing while climbing, or walking across ice. The gross motor skills easily reunify.

We can worry about balancing Dexterity separately. It is its own effort. But neither Strength nor Dexterity were satisfying the needs of the gymnastic genre.


For now, seeing all of the gymnastic Reflex-Athletics character concept in one place in the "Dexterity (Athletics)" skill check at DNDBeyond is a huge relief, a pain-point gone. A breath more easy. Athletics Dex is the right default to do.

 

[Yaarel]

I have been thinking about a "Vehicle" being a "tool proficiency", and by extension even referring to a "Mount", such as Horse − a living creature − as if a "tool proficiency".

At a deeper structure, we arent contrasting a "skill proficiency" and a "tool proficiency".

What we are looking at within the 5.24 skill system is a contrast between a proficiency and a specialization. Or perhaps verbatim, the skill system allows both "proficiency" and "expertise".

So the "Nature" skill allows a proficiency for a metallurgy check, such as to forge or repair a sword. But applying proficiencies in both Nature and "Blacksmiths tools" heightens the skill and success.

Differently, a gem cutter applies "Nature" and "Jewelers tools" to heighten the success for a lovely new gem.

The tools are different specializations within a same skill.


I would prefer if this kind of specialization granted "Expertise". But the 5.24 rules grant Advantage to the check when specializing, and I can live with that.

Consider. A character concept with Animal Handling who specializes in a Horse ("Riding Horse" or "Warhorse") for the kind of Mount, has Advantage when Handling it, but not when trying to Handle a Lion. There is a skill specialization.


5e 2024 seems to have evolved some 3e-isms for the skill system. The 5e skillers who are advantageously specializing (heh, perhaps called the "advants") are doing so in piecemeal fashion similar to 3e applying skill points to boost whichever skills in a piecemeal way.

The 5e broad skills are solid and useful, and the proficiency scales well across the tiers of levels. But the 5e specializations allow for heightened success within a narrow application of a skill.


An "expert" is a character that has skill "expertise". An "advant" would be a character with "advantage".

 

[NotAYakk]

Languages are divided between Ancient and Modern.

Modern Languages are country-based. Proficiency covers both speaking the language(s) of the country and general knowledge about the country and social rules etc.

"Ancient" Languages are akin to a "classical education in X". Someone in the 19th century who knows "Latin" would know the roman classics and roman history etc. So Draconic gives you knowledge about dragons and their history and politics and the like.

Most people can speak enough common trade language to get along, but subtle communication may require a check.

 

[Theory of Games]

Alright. I'm ready for the "What Should 6e Look Like?" thread

 

[Corinnguard]

Alright. I'm ready for the "What Should 6e Look Like?" thread

Now you've done it. Now that's all we are going to talk about on this thread. "Quick, look over there!"

 

[evilbob]

Acrobatics is removed. Use Dexterity (Athletics) instead.
Animal Handling is removed. Use Wisdom (Nature) instead.
Intimidation is removed. Use Strength (Persuasion) instead.
Medicine is removed. Use Survival instead.
Performance is removed. Use Persuasion instead.

Wow: I really like this list! These are some great ideas! Thank you!

Persuasion vs. Investigation, I actually don't mind the default definitions from 5.5.
Perception applies to noticing.
Investigation applies to discovering how something works.
"Finding a trap or secret door" could easily be either, and what I'm hearing you say is you codified investigation to always be required for inanimate things. It's not a bad idea to make them distinct, and reducing perception's ubiquity.

Dexterity (Deception) is great for magic tricks, but what skill do you use for lockpicking? Stealth? Or thieves' tools?

Personally, I've always missed "streetwise" but this thread made me realize Investigation (Charisma) works.

"Politics" / Knowledge: Local / Knowledge: Nobility or any "Knowledge: customs" is another important one that I don't have a good substitute for now. "Diplomacy" used to be close but "Persuasion" is distinct in my mind and it's also already overused. (To me, persuasion is active and knowledge checks are passive.) I guess you could use History (Charisma) but that just feels wrong. Creating a "Decorum" skill and letting it be CHA or INT would be neat.

 

[evilbob]

The annoying thing is that the way they've codified the skills on character sheets, it's kind of hard to do things like Strength (Persuasion) - or rather, it's hard to mentally remember you can. It's not bad in D&D Beyond, but it takes a little setup.

Here's where I'm at:

• Acrobatics removed. Use Dexterity (Athletics) instead
• Sleight of Hand removed. Use Dexterity (Deception) instead, or Dexterity (thieves' tools) for lock picking
• Animal Handling removed. Use Wisdom (Nature) instead
• Intimidation removed. Use Strength (Persuasion) instead
• Medicine removed. Use Intelligence (Survival) instead
• Performance removed. Use Charisma (Persuasion) or Charisma (tool skill) instead
• Investigation can apply to finding hidden inanimate objects, i.e. secret doors, traps, hidden objects
• Intelligence (Decorum) added: knowledge of customs, etiquette, and broadly handling social situations or class interactions; can use Wisdom (Decorum) to read a room and glean the "vibe"

 

[Yaarel]

I havent played around too much with customizing skills on DNDBeyond. I saw that it is easy to change the key ability, such as switching Athletics to Dexterity.

Is there a way to delete skills from and add skills to the skills list on the character sheet?

(Separately, when I tried to create a custom background, it seems to not let me pick an origin feat. Am I missing something?)

 

[DEFCON 1]

I havent played around too much with customizing skills on DNDBeyond. I saw that it is easy to change the key ability, such as switching Athletics to Dexterity.

Is there a way to delete skills from and add skills to the skills list on the character sheet?

You can add skills to the bottom of the list on DDB, but it won't put these new ones into alphabetical order (not to mention the new skills end up having to be on a scroll bar down in order for them to show up.) You cannot delete nor rename skills... which has always been my one bugaboo with the DDB character sheet. Everyone seems to have that one thing that irritates them about DDB... and being unable to customize the skill list fully has been mine.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Wow: I really like this list! These are some great ideas! Thank you!

Persuasion vs. Investigation, I actually don't mind the default definitions from 5.5.
Perception applies to noticing.
Investigation applies to discovering how something works.
"Finding a trap or secret door" could easily be either, and what I'm hearing you say is you codified investigation to always be required for inanimate things. It's not a bad idea to make them distinct, and reducing perception's ubiquity.

Dexterity (Deception) is great for magic tricks, but what skill do you use for lockpicking? Stealth? Or thieves' tools?

Personally, I've always missed "streetwise" but this thread made me realize Investigation (Charisma) works.

"Politics" / Knowledge: Local / Knowledge: Nobility or any "Knowledge: customs" is another important one that I don't have a good substitute for now. "Diplomacy" used to be close but "Persuasion" is distinct in my mind and it's also already overused. (To me, persuasion is active and knowledge checks are passive.) I guess you could use History (Charisma) but that just feels wrong. Creating a "Decorum" skill and letting it be CHA or INT would be neat.

At my own tables I found an overuse of Perception when it was also being used for secret doors/traps/objects in addition to finding people hiding using Stealth (and an underuse of Investigation to "figure out how things work" because when I put puzzles and such into the game it's to challenge the players to figure out the answers, not roll checks for them.) So making Perception about finding people/animals hiding and Investigation about finding hidden objects got both skill onto more of an equilibrium.

The thievery issue I've corrected for myself by adding 'Mechanics' as a skill into the game (what others might also call 'Engineering'.) This skill encompasses engineering, architecture, the various mechanical sciences, as well as picking locks and disarming traps. I have pretty much removed all Tools and Musical Instruments from the game as proficiency-granting items, having moved all their actions over to skills.

So now a standard Rogue's process might be:

Intelligence (Investigation) to notice a door is trapped.
The player can then narrate the kinds of things they are looking for / trying to find in order to figure out how it is trapped without making a roll, or they can make an Intelligence (Mechanics) check if they can't figure it out and want the dice to decide for them how it is trapped.
Once the traps is discovered and deduced... a Dexterity (Mechanics) check to disarm said trap (and might have Advantage on the check if their narrative discovery of what the trap is makes it such that they can narrate a way to disarm/remove the trap as well.)

Locked doors usually only involve a Dexterity (Mechanics) check to pick, as no rolls is really necessary to discover a door is locked-- the PC usually just tries the door and discovers "Oh yeah! Door is locked!"

Pickpocketing or hiding objects on your person goes to Dexterity (Deception) as I mentioned above.

As far as the Politics / Knowledge Local / Knowledge Nobility skill is concerned... in most campaigns I have just used 'History' as the default "urban knowledge" skill. So the four 'lore' skills are Arcana for magic, Religion for divine, Nature for wilderness areas, and History for civilized areas. Although depending on the setting I have added in additional ones as needed. My Theros campaign I added Politics as its own individual skill because interacting with the polis leaders was one of the focal points of the game. And in my Eberron game because Eberron has such a long and wild history, I kept the History skill strictly to that and then added 'Etiquette' as a skill for dealing with the upper-class, nobles, and dragonmarked houses, and then 'Folklore' for dealing with the lower class and the stories/legends they tread in. (And indeed, having seen the use of 'Decorum' as a skill name, I intend on using that going forward rather than 'Etiquette' if/when I need a upper-class / nobility skill.)