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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But, in, say, a Dungeon World game I might run, where do my players lack any freedom to do something that is present in your game? I mean, yes DW assumes that play will always be substantive and relegates other things like shop keeping or other nonconsequential RP to a non mechanical freeform format, assuming you want to include it. Still, assuming the table agrees, you have this option. Heck, the players can agree to let the GM run a mystery story with hidden facts. It could even be structured like a front. It's not exactly the kind of play that DW is made for, but you can do whatever.

Mainly, my point is, what have we actually given up?
It's just a preference. When I'm playing I want to discover a world, be surprised by what's around the next corner or over the next hill. I've also played in games where the loudest player(s) drove the game that didn't work for the rest of us.

But for me the biggest drawback is I no longer see the campaign through my character's eyes.

Similar in some ways to a girlfriend long ago when we would go to a movie. She'd wNt to talk all about the cinematography, how things were shot, focus of scenes and so on. Me? I wanted to discuss the characters and what they experienced, perhaps how the movie touched me or wowed me. Analyzing the movie's technical approach makes it much harder for me to just enjoy the story.
 

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I'm assuming the campaign still has unanswered questions for Fee-bella, so plenty of story to still work with.
The unanswered questions being What was the Nightmare that awoke Fea-bella? Who sent it? And is it related to (i) these dark times, in which Elves will need her help, and (ii) the stubbornness and greed of the Dwarves.
Additional content - assuming Lareth is still alive, perhaps build a relationship with his brother and/or adopt his brother's ambitions or work against them...
Also, who is her father?

There's also the other Elven PC, Telemere, whose enemy is his brother, Kalamere (or Calamere? - this might be another case of two spellings), who is somehow connected to evil portents (stars, comets, etc). And the possibility that Calamere, Telemere and Fea-bella are somehow connected.

But Telemere's player's presence is more intermittent, which means this Telemere-related stuff is not quite as central.

With Golin he still has his mentor and enemy story to deal with, but you have built on this backstory of his parents death and how Vaxen (his friend from town, two different spellings of the name) appears to have kept details of the explosion incident from his Golin.

In that prior session which developed his town friend you write


When the player wrote that Golin might be losing his friend - was that a suggestion or the desire by the player? Is that something you worked towards?
My job, as I see it, is to create the pressure, by linking the new elements that get introduced - in this case, via a random event roll - into the existing situation and "big picture" (that's a Burning Wheel term for the overall campaign context/logic). So I did.

It was Golin's playe who was worried that this revelation might hurt his relationship with Vaxen/Vaccin. Being a sentimental GM, I pointed out another possibility. But neither is "fixed" or predetermined. It will depend on how play unfolds.

A couple of other comments - these might be obvious, but seem worth making explicit:

First, the Fea-bella and Golin backstories intersect, geographically, at the Wizard's Tower (where Vaccin lives and where Fea-bella's mum lives, and where Pallando/Beholder of Fates - Lareth's father - had his house, which has inside it a post from the Elven dreamhouse that was stolen by Celedhring) and at the Forgotten Temple Complex (which is where Golin is from, and where Lareth's cult has its origin). But they don't yet intersect in terms of events. That is something that could change, and that I as GM am alert to. (Likewise, albeit to a slightly lesser extent, with Telemere's backstory which has the Elven theme to it, and also the ill omens theme to it. It was established very early in play that Kalamere had visited the now-ruined tower of Beholder of Fates, so there is some interweaving there.)

I imagine that some of this interweaving is what would be considered as "contrivance" by some RPGers. Personally I don't see it as any more contrived than the party phenomenon, or the fact that - in a typical adventure-based FRPG - the PCs just happen to be the ones doing the adventurous stuff, and happen to have (say) the opportunity to go on a 2nd level-ish adventure just at the time they are 2nd level.

Particularly when some of it involves fates, omens and dreams - which provides a bit of a "lampshade" for the way the PCs lives end up being connected.

Second, the time-sequence in the fiction and the time sequence at the table are not corresponding. In the fiction, Fea-bella and Golin are learning things about their respective pasts. So in the fiction, the sequence of events is something like Golin's parents and their wee bairn visit Vaccin at the Wizard's Tower => Vaccin helps with a new concoction => the explosion at the Temple that costs Fori his beard and kills Golin's parents => Golin is orphaned => (perhaps) Vaccin is Golin's friend.

But at the table, the sequence is:

:*During the hometown phase of PC build, the player decides that Golin is from a Forgotten Temple Complex;

*During the "how am I wise" phase of PC build, the player decides that Golin is Explosives-wise (and that the Forgotten Temple Complex had explosion-worshippers);

*During the relationships phase of PC build, the player decides that Golin is an orphan and has a friend, Vaccin, an alchemist in the Wizard's Tower;

*Later on, in play, a roll on the rumours table while Golin is drinking at the tavern in the Wizard's Tower means that I have to make up the "dismal news" about Golin's parents, and so do so;

*Later on again, I decide to use the Moathouse from T1 (prompted, I think, by @hawkeyefan posting about his T1-T4 campaign), and elaborate the Forgotten Temple Complex as the (Forgotten) Temple of Elemental (Evil)

*And later on again, I decide to introduce a new NPC, Fori the Beardless, as part of the Lareth cult-Temple-pirate situation, and when I introduce him in play I decide to connect his Beardlessness to Golin's backstory as an orphaned explosives cultists.​

I think all RPGing involves some of these time-sequence variations between fiction and table - as in, the GM (for world backstory) or the players (for PC backstory) make up stuff now that relates to the back then of the fiction, and helps explain or provide context for the now of the fiction. This can be anything from writing up a new dungeon and giving it an explanatory backstory, to rolling a good reaction roll for a NPC and inventing some backstory connection to a PC.

But what I've described is probably a more deliberate and "aggressive" illustration of, and deployment of, the technique then some of the "living world"-ers would endorse. There's not attempt by me as GM to conceal my authorship: it's pretty blatantly on display.

My personal experience at the table is that this sort of deliberate injection of personal stakes increases player immersion into the fiction and into the situation of their PC.
 

It's just a preference. When I'm playing I want to discover a world, be surprised by what's around the next corner or over the next hill. I've also played in games where the loudest player(s) drove the game that didn't work for the rest of us.

But for me the biggest drawback is I no longer see the campaign through my character's eyes.

Similar in some ways to a girlfriend long ago when we would go to a movie. She'd wNt to talk all about the cinematography, how things were shot, focus of scenes and so on. Me? I wanted to discuss the characters and what they experienced, perhaps how the movie touched me or wowed me. Analyzing the movie's technical approach makes it much harder for me to just enjoy the story.

Do you not think that a DW GM surprises players with what’s around the corner, or over the hill, or down through the dungeon? Like, say we’re playing real wide open DW where the players and GM are building the world out from the starting point (or doing it collaboratively during a session 0 or whatever). Usually what you’re doing is dropping a rumor-level of detail as far as I’m aware. Like, “oh, ok, the next thing over is the Gardens of Kadesh, and my character has heard there’s strange living hills there” and then the GM is still responsible for fleshing that out and adding twists and stuff.

Like I delight in surprising my players in Stonetop. Last session the Blessed really wanted to go find this “Library of the Great Forest” the dryad she’d been hanging out with told her about. We walked through the Waystones on the Fae Roads to get there (custom Moves! Surprisingly complications!), and she discovered what the dryad was calling a library was a huge meadow of rainbow colored moss, which offered the ability to meld your consciousness with the Great Forest itself (it’s an Arcana - Stonetop’s complex magic items).
 

As do I, in terms of not cheating etc.

But my long-term experience is that very few (if any!) players can or will completely ignore meta-information that their characters don't know when deciding the next actions of said characters.

When rolling for an in-game unknown (e.g. finding a secret door, or gathering info) a player-side roll gives them meta-information their characters wouldn't have. Did we fail to find a secret door because we simply missed it or because there isn't one there to find should always be an in-character question on a failed search.

Just because it's 2025 doesn't mean the players should get a free pass.
exactly, and it's all those times when you fail a persuasion roll and the bard tries to jump in with bardic inspiration and the druid insists they had cast guidance beforehand and, and, and...

but why would the players be saying those actions if they didn't know to some extent that you probably just beefed that roll with your 4, if they really thought they needed them why didn't they use them before the dice rolled?
 


Similar in some ways to a girlfriend long ago when we would go to a movie. She'd wNt to talk all about the cinematography, how things were shot, focus of scenes and so on. Me? I wanted to discuss the characters and what they experienced, perhaps how the movie touched me or wowed me. Analyzing the movie's technical approach makes it much harder for me to just enjoy the story.
And just like the posts here, both of you would think the other is missing the point.
 

Do you not think that a DW GM surprises players with what’s around the corner, or over the hill, or down through the dungeon? Like, say we’re playing real wide open DW where the players and GM are building the world out from the starting point (or doing it collaboratively during a session 0 or whatever). Usually what you’re doing is dropping a rumor-level of detail as far as I’m aware. Like, “oh, ok, the next thing over is the Gardens of Kadesh, and my character has heard there’s strange living hills there” and then the GM is still responsible for fleshing that out and adding twists and stuff.

Like I delight in surprising my players in Stonetop. Last session the Blessed really wanted to go find this “Library of the Great Forest” the dryad she’d been hanging out with told her about. We walked through the Waystones on the Fae Roads to get there (custom Moves! Surprisingly complications!), and she discovered what the dryad was calling a library was a huge meadow of rainbow colored moss, which offered the ability to meld your consciousness with the Great Forest itself (it’s an Arcana - Stonetop’s complex magic items).


I haven't played DW I've just read some of the rules and looked at some actual play. But even if the GM creates some of the world, there are parts that are added by the players, correct? That would take me out of my character's perspective. May not be an issue for you, it is for me.
 


All you're doing is just reaffirming that you've created a definition of agency that is not widely shared to "prove" that the game you prefer has "more agency".
To me, it seems that you and some other posters are the ones fussing around definitions. I am talking about an actual phenomenon.

When we look at a game, and how it is played - a board game, a card game, a RPG - we can investigate how much control a player of the game has over the way the game unfolds. In snakes and ladders, a player has none. In chess, a skilled player has lots. In bridge, a skilled player has quite a bit, but their control is subject to the hands that they and their partner are dealt.

In a RPG, the unfolding of the game consists in the establishment and development of a shared fiction. In a conventional RPG, the participants occupy asymmetric roles - GM and player - which gives them different moves with which to influence the game. The GM has a special responsibility for setting, framing and (some) consequences; the player has a special responsibility for what one particular character in the fiction does.

We can then investigate how those roles are established, what rules and principles govern them, and from that we can identify how much control the different participant roles have over the way the game unfolds.

I don't know when I first saw the phrase "player agency" used on these boards, but to me it seems to be getting at the idea I've just set out: how much control does a RPG participant, who is in the player rather than the GM role, have over the way the game - which is to say, the shared fiction - unfolds? And that is what I am talking about.

If you want to forbid me from describing that as player agency, OK, whatever - tell me what term I'm allowed to use, and I'll use that. Quibbling over the word doesn't make the phenomenon disappear, or lose its importance to me.
 

This is the part where you imply that it's hypocritical of @AlViking to complain about you claiming their style of play (which is intended to focus on providing agency) has far less agency than your preferred style, and indicating that the reason it is hypocritical is AlViking had the audacity to suggest a Living World Sandbox style of play offers more agency than some old modules that have for decades been held up as the original poster child for limited agency.

You are making that case that anyone who accepts AlViking's comparison as valid should also accept your comparison as valid. There is no other way to interpret the comment.

Now, you might choose to say, well, technically, you never actually said, "You must accept my criticism as valid and true." But you absolutely are trying to position not accepting it as unreasonable and hypocritical, which amounts to the same thing.

It is a disingenuous, rhetorical trick.
It's not a "trick". It's an attempt to illustrate that this notion that there is no possible comparison of degrees of agency across approaches to RPGing is without foundation.

If someone doesn't agree with my judgement of degrees of agency, I look forward to reading their explanation. But the assertion that the comparison can't be made, between degrees of agency in a living sandbox and some other approaches, is simply false.
 

Into the Woods

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