Do you have a view on my question: If you are GMing 3E D&D, and a player builds a ranger with Orcs as a favoured enemy, and so that means you as GM decide to use some Orcs as NPCs, does that count as the player exercising "meta agency"?
I can only speak for myself, but what would happen is the player would only select orcs as a favoured enemy if they already know there will be orcs in the campaign or they have discussed it with me and we've confirmed opportunities to face orcs will be sufficient to satisfy them.
Generally speaking, I won't add orcs into a setting because a player wants them to exist there; if the player wants or needs a favoured enemy and there are no orcs, they'll choose something else.
All this being the case, I will typically not "decide to use some Orcs as NPCs" because "a player builds a ranger with Orcs as a favoured enemy," It's a hypothetical that just won't come up.
In the hypothetical where the player was free to select a favoured enemy in the knowledge that doing so would affect my world building, that would seem to match my understanding of meta-agency as @robertsconley was defining it.
When you say "not deciding outcomes on the fly" here, and the rest of this, does that mean that when you need to rule/decide on something (are there bandits here? what has happened to the town since the adventurers last came through? what dangers threaten the realm? etc) you're referring to hard notes / tables / etc that tell you in a broad-brush map & key style way? Or is it a heuristic of "last time we were here they saw X, but per my living world procedures Y party has done Z, so I need to describe the changes?" Some combination?
I know you've said that you record all your rulings on a shared document type thing, so taking that level of consistency and integrity of GMing as given.
When I say “not deciding outcomes on the fly,” I mean that I’m not relying on anything other than established details, notes, maps, keys, timelines, or logical consequences that follow from the current state of the world. If something was left open, like what’s happened to a town since the players last visited, or whether a new danger has emerged, I look at what’s already been established. That includes what the players did last time, what relevant NPCs or factions were doing, and what larger world events might be affecting the area.
Sometimes that means referencing keyed maps, faction notes, or timelines I’ve already prepped. Other times it means I have to generate new material because the situation now requires more detail than it did before. Maybe a new NPC becomes important because of player action. Maybe a region that was just a name on the map now needs landmarks, rulers, or conflict. When that happens, I create those details in a way that fits with what has already been established and what makes sense in terms of the campaign.
These details often involve the use of a variety of random generators, the most useful of which I have encoded as part of my Inspiration Pad Pro Setup, like this one, which I use to generate word salads based on personality traits to figure out a given NPC's personality.
I record those outcomes so they become part of the persistent world, starting as rough Mnemonics that I will eventually polish. It’s a blend of structured prep and procedural extrapolation. But the key idea is this: once something becomes true in the world, I treat it as if it’s real and unfolding. That’s what keeps the setting consistent and gives player decisions real weight.
I have a lot of references and resources to draw from.
The most used get scanned, copied, and bound in reference books.
Where player goals come into play is in determining what parts of the world get developed next. I often use the example of walking through Manhattan. There may be hundreds of things happening around me, but I only pay attention to a few, like finding a game store. Similarly, if a party made up mostly of Thothian mages arrives in the City of Northport, then in addition to covering general city details, I’ll focus on fleshing out how magical society functions there, assuming it exists. Their goals steer the spotlight, but the world remains grounded in its own continuity.
Northport was founded 190 years ago by Joseph Falkor (see Falktor’s Tor, Terrain, 2836), who built a fort on Highhill where the castle now stands. The fort expanded into a keep and later a castle as scouts, traders, and knights from the Grand Kingdom arrived to explore, trade, and conquer. Northport is now the largest city in the Northern Marches, the busiest trade hub, and the seat of the Dukes of Northport.
Gets fleshed out into this
to this
The Brambles which is a tangle of tenement and cheap shop taking up the southeast quarter of the city.
Saint Edmunds which occupies the southwest quarter and solidly middle class properous district dominated by the clergy of Saint Edumunds Cathedral the temple of Veritas the High Lord the God of Truth
Bayside one the westside of Northport dominated by sailors, teamsters, and merchants brining in food and supplies coming in from the western docks.
Falkor's Landing the commercial heart of Northport centered around Horizon Seeker Market
Seaside which lies next to the northern docks where much of the mercantile trade of Northport flows into and out of.
Highhills which has Castle Northport and the Ducal Palace along with the homes of the rich and wealthy. Along with the temple of Delaquain the Goddess of Honor and Justice and patron of knights and nobles.
Other notable locations include The Grove in the northeast corner which contains the Temple of Dannu the goddess of Hearth and Healing whose clerics are found among the poor in the Bramble. Along with a Druid Circle devoted to Silvanus, the Dream Lord of the Forest, with an emissary from the Kingdom of Irminsul, one of the largest Elven Kingdoms.
Prismatic Square which is in the northwest corner of the city next to the The House of the Prismatic Mysteries which is a conclave of mage of the Order of Thoth.
In Northport there are three different thieves Guilds
The Company of Friends
As settlers drifted in from the Grand Kingdom, not all were successful. Two generations ago, Anwald the Shadowcat consolidated control over the Brambles and formed the Company of Friends a thieves guild engaged in prostitution, protection rackets, and petty thievery. The guild is currently control by a five member Council of Brothers led by Delvina Swiftblade.
The Birka Band
A group of Viking smugglers, cutthroats and thieves, centered in Seaside. They specialize in smuggling illicit goods in and out of Northport. Members are often sailors and longshoremn. They are led by a Triumvirate consisting of Harald Stormerson, Vidar Thrymskald, and Yrsa Handless.
Oaken Whisperers
The Toudervo were a group of tribes who lived in the river valley formed by the Water of Boyle. Most of the tribes were either conquered or assimilated into the Duchy of Northport. The Oaken Whisperers were a group of loose bands who raided tribes for cattle and livestock and sold them to the unscrupulous. After the foundation fo the Duchy of Northport they diminished until the City of Northport was founded. Since then they found success as smugglers and information brokers. They found mostly in Bayside and part of St Edmunds.
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The city is divided into several districts. Bayside encompassing the western docks, and Seaside with the northern docks. Highhill contains the castle, the ducal villa, and the homes of the wealthier nobles. Falkor’s Landing is the commercial heart of the city and includes the Horizon Seeker’s Market, named after the ship captained by John Boyle (see Boyle’s Bay, Terrain, 2331). St Edmund’s encompasses the district surrounding the cathedral dedicated to Saint Edmund a champion of Veritas the God of Truth and the High Lord. Built on top of an old marsh, the Brambles is a warren of rickety tenements and home to many of the city’s poor.
The King’s Way is the city's main thoroughfare and runs west to east from the Bayside docks to the East Gate. To the north are the district of Seaside and its docks, Falkor’s Landing, and Highhill. To the south are the districts of Saint Edmunds and the Brambles.
There are two other notable locations in the city. The first is the Prismatic Square which is a maze of colorful stalls with potion brewers, elixir distillers, fortune tellers, and vendors selling magical trinkets selling their services and wares. It is located in the northwest corner of Northport between the Bayside and Seaside districtcs. The square lies next to the House of Prismatic Mysteries the largest conclave of mages belonging to the Order of Thoth in the Northern Marches.
The second is the Grove located in the northeast corner of Northport. It is a small forest located within the city walls just to the east of Highhill. The Temple of Dannu, the goddess of healing lies next to the southern entrance. The grove is maintained by druids belonging to the Trehaen, an order of allied Druids, Rangers, and Clerics of the forest god, Silvanus. Also inside the Grove is an embassy of the Elves of the Kingdom of Irnminsul. Duke Duncan of Northport, and Sir Palgist, the Royal Sheriff, work closely with the Elven Ambassador to counter threats to both kingdoms.
The city government is led by a council of five aldermen each representing a district of the city. The council is lead by a warden appointed by the Duke of Northport. Sir Albert Langston has been warden for over 20 years. He was originally appointed by Angus the Eternal Duke, Duke Duncan’s predecessor and grandfather. Sir Albert has an extensive spy network that
As settlers drifted in from the Grand Kingdom, not all were successful. Two generations ago, Anwald the Shadowcat consolidated control over the Brambles and formed the Company of Friends a thieves guild engaged in prostitution, protection rackets, and petty thievery. The guild is currently controlled by a five member Council of Brothers led by Delvina Swiftblade.
The Birka Gang is a group of Viking smugglers, cutthroats, and thieves centered in Seaside. They specialize in smuggling illicit goods in and out of Northport. Members are often sailors and longshoremen. They are led by a Triumvirate consisting of Harald Stormerson, Vidar Thrymskald, and Yrsa Handless.
The Toudervo were a group of tribes who lived in the river valley formed by the Water of Boyle. Most of the tribes were either conquered or assimilated into the Duchy of Northport. The Oaken Whisperers were a group of loose bands who raided tribes for cattle and livestock and sold them to the unscrupulous. After the foundation of the Duchy of Northport they diminished until the City of Northport was founded. Since then they found success as smugglers and information brokers. They are found mostly in Bayside and parts of St Edmunds.
Bishop Berengar Hollowbrook Bishop of Northport.
And now that the party has moved away from Northport, I have a bunch of rough notes to polish, like this list of randomly generated street vendors in the Horizon Seeker Market.
1. Dara Swiftwind
Specialty: Exotic animals and rare creatures
Description: Dara is a daring merchant who deals in the trade of exotic animals, rare pets, and unusual creatures. She’s known for her ability to acquire the most elusive beasts from distant lands.
2. Fintan Oakenfist
Specialty: Woodcrafts and carpentry supplies
Description: Fintan is a master woodworker who buys and sells high-quality timber, rare woods, and expertly crafted furniture. His stall is always filled with the rich scent of fresh-cut wood and resin.
3. Maeve Silverpurse
Specialty: Luxury goods and fine wares
Description: Maeve deals in luxury items such as perfumes, fine wines, perfumes, and ornate household goods. She has a reputation for catering to Northport’s wealthy elite and always has an eye for rare and beautiful things.
4. Orlaith Windwhisper
Specialty: Curiosities and enchanted trinkets
Description: Orlaith is a mysterious merchant who deals in oddities, curiosities, and minor magical items. Her booth is filled with strange and unusual artifacts, and she’s always looking for new wonders to add to her collection.
Do you have a view on my question: If you are GMing 3E D&D, and a player builds a ranger with Orcs as a favoured enemy, and so that means you as GM decide to use some Orcs as NPCs, does that count as the player exercising "meta agency"?
If you-as-DM put the Orcs there specifically because they were the Ranger PC's favoured enemy, then yes the DM in effect gave the player meta-agency.
To be fair, IMO it'd be just as bad if the DM chose not to put Orcs there specifically because of the Ranger's ability.
Beyond the most basic of level guidelines, what the PCs can specifically do or not do, what classes or species they are, etc. shouldn't enter in to one's placement of monsters or obstacles. Sometimes by sheer luck a player will have exactly the right character for the job at hand (e.g. the Ranger vs Orcs in the example given), other times by sheer luck a player will have the completely wrong character for the job e.g. a 1e Illusionst against a dungeon full of mindless undead.
Imaginary things cannot have actual causal effects. By definition, they are imaginary, and hence have no more real effects than do <spoiler alert> Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
The GM can imagine circumstances in the setting, and on the basis reach a view as to what should happen. That's a method of making a decision. Authors use it a lot.
In my view the two bolded bits are presenting the same concept in different words: that the GM imagines her way through the fiction's causality sequence that led to things being as they are at the moment to be narrated or described, such that if that causality sequence becomes important for some reason (e.g. the players in-character start investigating what led up to this moment) she's already got it covered.
BW doesn't allow for avoiding rolls through the deployment of gear and resources. The benefit of planning ahead is improving your chances of success (+1D or more) or making things easier (-1 Ob or more).
Ah! OK, then; planning ahead can have some mechanical benefit. Good to see this.
The 'can' or 'cannot' in that sentence is what I've been trying to get answered. Thanks!
Still, though, in the specific catch-the-blood example from pemerton's game the player shouldn't have to roll to find a container if he's got one in his belt pouch, should he?
Before replying, I ask that you consider why you’re continuing to debate this point. What are you hoping to achieve, given the assumptions you’ve clearly stated? If your goal is to critique my techniques, methods, and how they flow from my stance, that’s a valid and worthwhile discussion. But continuing to argue from the premise that your stance is the only correct approach, and that mine is inherently flawed, doesn’t lead to a productive exchange. At that point, it stops being creative discussion and turns into debate for its own sake.
Regarding your other two points, I don’t see value in continuing to debate them. Your responses are consistent with your stance and assumptions, and from within that framework, they make sense. That’s not meant to be dismissive, it’s just a recognition that further back-and-forth won’t be productive when the underlying premises are so different.
And yet, here we are again, with you repeating your point about fictional causation, as if I hadn’t already acknowledged it, summarized it fairly, and clearly stated that your conclusions make sense within your premise. That was the entire point of my earlier post.
Now it seems we’re headed toward debating literary theory to try to “settle” this disagreement. Really? We’re going to resolve on EN World a foundational debate that has kept philosophers, authors, and scholars divided for generations?
Let me be clear: I do not accept your premise. Others here do not accept your premise. Some here do, others outside do. That’s the state of things, in this thread, in the broader gaming scene, and in literature and the arts.
We are not going to resolve that divide. What we can do is explore how our different assumptions play out at the table. If you're interested in that, I'm here. If you're just trying to prove that your framework is the only valid one, then we’re done.
When you say "not deciding outcomes on the fly" here, and the rest of this, does that mean that when you need to rule/decide on something (are there bandits here? what has happened to the town since the adventurers last came through? what dangers threaten the realm? etc) you're referring to hard notes / tables / etc that tell you in a broad-brush map & key style way? Or is it a heuristic of "last time we were here they saw X, but per my living world procedures Y party has done Z, so I need to describe the changes?" Some combination?
For my part, that's the ideal (either of those, or a combination). Practicality and beer then rear their ugly heads, however, and often the best I can do is to broad-strokes it and hope it all makes sense in the end.
Fortunately I've got two things going for me: I designed the setting in the first place, and I've been running it for 17 years and counting. Thus, even the off-the-cuff-est things I might make up will have a solid foundation to sit on.
"Ability to freely think, speak, move, and act", sure. 100%. But that movement (and associated thoughts, words, and deeds) need not be toward anything specific; it could be to get away from something else, or simply be aimless/random/at whim.
"Ability to freely think, speak, move, and act", sure. 100%. But that movement (and associated thoughts, words, and deeds) need not be toward anything specific; it could be to get away from something else, or simply be aimless/random/at whim.
