D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

Rushbolt

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The recent UA for the 2024 Arcane Subclasses has once again brought the design of the Necromancer Wizard subclass to the forefront. Surveys will pile in for the UA that was released with the latest incarnation of this specialist that harnesses the powers of the dark arts. Many of them will bemoan the ineffectiveness of this new version to generate from 4-20 undead as quickly and easily as the 2014 version of the subclass or the fact that you don't get to bolster your undead at 6th level like before. They will acknowledge that this can create some complexity, but they will say it worked fine in their game. They will say it didn't cause a problem, and the game was richer for it. Most of those people have not been on the other side of the DM screen for 16 levels of play from a Necromancy Wizard. I have.

I am going to preface this by saying that I am fully aware everyone's experience will vary, and some groups may have figured out how to solve quite a few of these issues. That doesn't make the subclass more designable. Design means you are making a subclass where the DM and players don't have to agree on things like how many corpses are available. It also means you are making a character that has a somewhat predictable power level that can be played by any player without difficulty. Finally, and maybe most importantly, you are designing a class that is usable in organized play.

How many undead will the Necromancer animate? 5? 10? 20? You don't know. How do you handle that many extra creatures? It will depend. Is it an open forest or a cramped twisting passage? How many melee players are going to need to wait if the Necromancer sends his minions in first? What if the Necromancer is using ghouls? Those attacks need rolled first to see if anything gets paralyzed. Okay something was paralyzed. Roll all the attacks with advantage now. Wait-that's hard to do for 6 other creatures unless you have matched dice to see what rolls go together. Okay just roll them one at a time. Was that one in melee? Do I get to roll crit damage now? This is the type of combat that was pervasive in 4th edition D&D. People didn't like that complexity.

Many people know the origin of D&D is wargaming. I went to a seminar one time at Gen Con and was given the history of how the Role Playing genre evolved. Players had several units on the battlefield, and often they were referred to by their commander's name. "Sergeant York's unit has held that hill for 5 turns now." Eventually, the units were ignored and just the commander was fleshed out. Add in a little Lord of the Rings, change the commanders to characters and you have D&D. This is how you can design a consistent Necromancer that is interesting. Focus on the character, not the minions.

Wizards has done quite a bit of that here, but I don't think they have explained their features well or provided enough of them. For example, the10th level Bloodied feature could be written as the character explodes in a mist that reforms up to 60 feet away. They can also lean in to the Necromancer becoming resistant to conditions that normally don't affect the undead as their practice of the dark magic allows them to build up a tolerance against those effects The most obvious of these is the Frightened condition. How are you easily scaring a Necromancer? Anyone stating the Necromancer just needs to be an undead commander is just ignoring the lion's share of the other Necromancy spells that show many of the character's other skills.
 
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I don't follow it closely, but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of necromancer class on the way for Pathfinder 2, and if I understand it correctly it avoids managing hordes of minions by making it abstract. Summons are a resource that you spend to perform combat actions.

I think that approach is better than trying to actually support having lots of minions, something which feels like it just eats up table time.
 


Just stat up "swarm of zombies" with an appropriate CR.

If an Nth level druid can have an animal companion with X hit points that does Y damage, well, an Nth level necromancer can have a swarm of zombies that does about the same. Yeah, it's flavored as a crowd of creatures filling a Huge space, but it should be balanced.

If you want, like, thousands of undead, that's plot macguffin stuff. That's building a horrible artifact to bind the souls of an army. That's not just a random pick-up choice for a class ability.
 

Of course it’s designable. They already designed it. You may not like the design because of the table management issues it can cause and evidently did cause in your game. But that’s a very different claim to make than that it can’t be designed. Again, it has been designed, so calling its design impossible is just demonstrably
I have to acknowledge that you are correct. I should have said designable for balance and playability. I went for too short of a title.
 
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Just stat up "swarm of zombies" with an appropriate CR.

If an Nth level druid can have an animal companion with X hit points that does Y damage, well, an Nth level necromancer can have a swarm of zombies that does about the same. Yeah, it's flavored as a crowd of creatures filling a Huge space, but it should be balanced.

If you want, like, thousands of undead, that's plot macguffin stuff. That's building a horrible artifact to bind the souls of an army. That's not just a random pick-up choice for a class ability.
Alter to need, ofc :D
 

I don't follow it closely, but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of necromancer class on the way for Pathfinder 2, and if I understand it correctly it avoids managing hordes of minions by making it abstract. Summons are a resource that you spend to perform combat actions.

I think that approach is better than trying to actually support having lots of minions, something which feels like it just eats up table time.
To a degree, this is the core of the difference between Conjure animals (2014), conjure animals (2024) and summon animals. 2014 created a pool of Monster Manual accurate creatures to use, each with their own HP and actions. The 2024 version created a collection of spirits that were non-interactable and did a specific effect. The summon spell create one powerful creature that acts like an ally.

The first issue is one of numbers. A horde of MM skeletons are the most versatile out of combat, doing anything from trap detector to caddie to archery. But they create hell on the action economy and are individually too weak (an army of skeletons are one AOE effect away from wasting countless spell levels for animate dead). But for most, this is what summoning minions should be: real actual minions capable of many things that a creature can do.

2024 conjure spells are abstract. They essentially aren't even creatures, they are spell effect zones flavored to describe non-interactable spirits vaguely shaped like the creature type in the name. All they do is is their one spell effect. It's the simplest method of creating a horde (a massive spell aoe doing necrotic damage and causing fear/paralysis/etc) but the least satisfying from a summon standpoint. It's not that much different from any other AOE effect, fluff notwithstanding.

The summon spells create one creature that usually is on par with the level of the summoner (and thus isn't canon fodder) and can be interacted with (has AC and HP) but one summoned creature does not an army make. And your still not really summoning a MM bear, zombie or mind flayer, you are summoning a spirit (again) that can look like those things but has it's own semi-customizable list of options. The best mechanical interpretation, but My Pet Zombie isn't what everyone wants.

Can those different types of summoning be squared? Should it? 2024 Conjure spells and the Summon spells are both in the 24 PHB, and Animate Dead/Create Undead still work like the 2014 type of summon. (More than can be said for pixie summoning druids). But none of those options really brings the fantasy of controlling hordes of the dead. And I don't think you can unless you are willing to give up either versatility or power. In short, I don't think the horde necromancer is possible.
 

Just stat up "swarm of zombies" with an appropriate CR.
Conjure Animals Undead Horde
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute.

You conjure nature spirits mindless undead that appear as a pack horde in an unoccupied space you can see within range. The pack horde lasts for the duration, and you choose the spirits' animal form, such as wolves, serpents, or birds zombie, skeleton, or tentacles. The horde can occupy the same space as other creatures, move around corners, fit though spaces a small or bigger creature can fit though, and is difficult is difficult terrain.
The horde has 20HP and all attacks against it automatically succeed, and it automatically fails any saving throw, and is vulnerable to area of effects. The spell ends early if the horde runs out of HP. It's diameter is equal to a radius of it's hit points divided by 5 (minimum 5').
Creatures, other than you, in the horde must make a Dexterity saving throw at the start of their turns or be Grabbed and take 2d4 Necrotic damage and 2d4 bludgeoning damage.
When you move on your turn, you can also move the horde up to 15 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. As an action, you can give the horde 5+ your spell casting modifier HP.l, possibly expanding it's size.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d4 Necrotic and 1d4 Bludgeoning for each spell slot level above 3, it's starting HP by 5, and the duration increases by 1 minute.
 


Conjure Animals Undead Horde
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute.

You conjure nature spirits mindless undead that appear as a pack horde in an unoccupied space you can see within range. The pack horde lasts for the duration, and you choose the spirits' animal form, such as wolves, serpents, or birds zombie, skeleton, or tentacles. The horde can occupy the same space as other creatures, move around corners, fit though spaces a small or bigger creature can fit though, and is difficult is difficult terrain.
The horde has 20HP and all attacks against it automatically succeed, and it automatically fails any saving throw, and is vulnerable to area of effects. The spell ends early if the horde runs out of HP. It's diameter is equal to a radius of it's hit points divided by 5 (minimum 5').
Creatures, other than you, in the horde must make a Dexterity saving throw at the start of their turns or be Grabbed and take 2d4 Necrotic damage and 2d4 bludgeoning damage.
When you move on your turn, you can also move the horde up to 15 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. As an action, you can give the horde 5+ your spell casting modifier HP.l, possibly expanding it's size.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d4 Necrotic and 1d4 Bludgeoning for each spell slot level above 3, it's starting HP by 5, and the duration increases by 1 minute.
I get your not trying to balance this, just spitball it. But sweet Vecna is this bad. It's a cloud of daggers and entangle lovechild that gets dispelled the first time it or you (concentration) get hit with a strong blow. It embodies the worst of both conjure types: the limited use cases of 2024 Conjures and the fragility of 2014 Conjures. The only saving grace is doesn't clutter the battlefield with bodies and clog initiative with dozens of attack rolls.
 

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