What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[cranberry]

Negoiation is hardly meant to be about skill at all. It is all about bringing up the right kind of topics in the conversation, and make a roll per completed "argument". (Edit: there are some opening to use skill to inform what would be good topics to bring up, but that is fully optional) once you are out of good ideas for how to argue you can always just end the negotiation and get the result you have been offered (you should get an offer after each roll - though the offer could be "get out of my sight, and I wont make life hard for you").

If it's not tied to skills, then you just roll 2d10 without any adjustments?

OK, the way it was explained to me is that the Patience score started at 4, and the success started at one, and we had to roll successfully to increase the success rating (to 4) before the patience rating dropped to 1 (from failures)

 

[Staffan]

Theses were all pregen characters, so I suppose the designers could have made mistakes.

The pregen Fury has Brag and Intimidate, and you might be able to make a case for Nature. They also have Intuition and Presence 1 which isn't bad.

Depending on which pregens you're playing, there's also:
Wode elf troubadour: Brag, Flirt, Perform, Persuade, as well as Read Person that should help with figuring out motivations and pitfalls. They also have Scene Partner which lets them form a bond with an NPC that make their attempts att increasing Interest more effective.
High Elf Tactician: Intimidate, Flirt, Lead, Persuade, Strategy. They also have an Edge on Presence+Flirt or +Persuade tests, and increase everyone's effective Renown by 2. If this is the negotiation from Road to Brockhurst (which it sounds like), this should give the Troubadour, Tactician and Elementalist an edge on either Flirt, Lead, and Persuade (if famous) or Brag, Interrogate, and Intimidate (if infamous).
Human Censor: Intimidate, Read Person. OK, this one is pretty socially inept, but on the other hand has a base Presence of 2 which is pretty good.
Human Null: Empathize, Handle Animal, Persuade, Read Person.
Human Talent: Lie, Persuade, Read Person
Orc Conduit: Culture, Persuade, Read Person
Polder Elementalist: Empathize. Not much here, but they do have both Reason and Intuition at 2.
Polder Shadow: Flirt, Lie. They also have the ability to increase the success of any failed test from the Intrigue group by a tier at the cost of d6+level Stamina.

With a bit of creativity, one might also use other skills than the directly social ones – Nature sounds like a good example for making an argument for how this might be beneficial to the woods, or Strategy if trying to explain how helping the group can be good for dealing with bandits.

However, it should be noted that the Brockhurst negotiation is a bit of an outlier due to the target starting with Interest 1 and Patience 5, which generally does not happen. Going by the book, he should probably start at Interest 2 and either Patience 2 (if the GM determines that he's Suspicious) or 3 (Neutral). I think the abnormal starting values are meant to prolong the negotiation for demo purposes.

 

[Staffan]

If it's not tied to skills, then you just roll 2d10 without any adjustments?

Negotiations generally use 2d10+Reason, Intuition, or Presence, with the possible addition of +2 for a useful skill. Depending on the situation and the argument made this doesn't have to be an overtly social skill – you might be able to persuade a faction leader to support you in an attack by telling them about your attack plans and roll Reason+Strategy.

OK, the way it was explained to me is that the Patience score started at 4, and the success started at one, and we had to roll successfully to increase the success rating (to 4) before the patience rating dropped to 1 (from failures)

Interest 3 is generally considered a success in a negotiation – that's the "Yes, but" result. As in "I'll help you but you have to do something for me." 4 is a straight "Yes", and 5 is "Yes, and" – not only do they help you, they throw in something extra. And starting at Interest 1 is pretty uncommon – that's basically what you get if you're already in a fight and you shout "Wait, can't we talk about this?" (Hostile NPC).

 

[Staffan]

Also, if this is the Road to Brockhurst, it is specifically designed to be an adventure for an experienced GM to use to run a demo, rather than an adventure meant to teach the game to the whole group. The latter exists: that's the Delian Tomb, which is a steal at $10 for the PDF.

 

[Enrahim]

If it's not tied to skills, then you just roll 2d10 without any adjustments?

The as far as I can tell the argument follow the standard procedure for a test: Argument is made in fiction. Director calls for a test alongside indicating wich characteristic to use (limited to reason, intuition or presence in the context of an argument in a negotiation according to the utcome tables). Then after this the players may suggest how a skill might be aplicable. Suggesting a skill is fully optional, and the Director is free to reject any suggestion. As such if you don't immediately see any relevant skills, the aproperiate play is generally to just make the roll with just the characteristic. (Edit: DS is in general a fiction first, not a skill first system - that is you are not declaring "I use skill X to acheive Y", but rather "I try to acheve Y by doing X", and not specify any skill unless a test is caled by the director)

However skill is "just" a +2. The nature of the argument changes the entire outcome table for the roll (or even can cause auto failure or success- no roll required), making this a much more important factor.

(Edit: there are also as far as I can see not any limit on only use a skill once in negotiation, as opposed to in montage. Instead it is a limitation on only one attempt for each topic/approach)

OK, the way it was explained to me is that the Patience score started at 4, and the success started at one, and we had to roll successfully to increase the success rating (to 4) before the patience rating dropped to 1 (from failures)

This is simplified to the point that of being misleading. Already at 2 you get something better than at 1 interest, and being at 1 interest is better than falling to zero. Even at 3 interest you get the main thing you are after (if you are willing to accept the catch).

Moreover negotiation can go on until patience hits zero, but it is often wise to back out and get what is offered before you get to that point. Patience also drops on almost all arguments - success, failure or neutral. Only on extreme success will patience stay unchanged.

 

[Campbell]

When I run it (Road to Broadhurst) I'm going to be retuning the negotiation a bit. The "give me your magic item" bit is pretty lame and a bit inconsistent with the things that motivate them. Also starting out at Interest 1 means one bad move can end the negotiation. I don't think that makes for a very good demo of the mechanic or for a very compelling scene.

I do think it's important emphasize that you can take the offer at any step and pushing too hard might be counterproductive.

 

[zakael19]

Well, I’m going to run a few test sessions of Delian Tomb for one of my groups. Should be able to get some opinions on subject because one player does PF2e every week and loves tactical gameplay; one said “huh, wonder if it’ll actually be fun to play unlike PF2” and one is an OSR / narrative game player who’s just curious enough to want to try it.

 

[Retreater]

I think you must have been severely unfortunate with your Director?

I am so exhausted of this mentality. Like a GM already has the following responsibilities: planning the same sessions, teaching the rules, buying the books, navigating player preferences, being a counselor for interpersonal drama, writing adventures, creating encounters. And now they have to have the "perfect" distribution of terrain, monstrous abilities, plenty of opportunities for role-playing checks, etc.
Trying to teach AND learn a new game, and it's an "unfortunate" experience?
Seriously, just play Gloomhaven or something.

 

[zakael19]

I am so exhausted of this mentality. Like a GM already has the following responsibilities: planning the same sessions, teaching the rules, buying the books, navigating player preferences, being a counselor for interpersonal drama, writing adventures, creating encounters. And now they have to have the "perfect" distribution of terrain, monstrous abilities, plenty of opportunities for role-playing checks, etc.
Trying to teach AND learn a new game, and it's an "unfortunate" experience?
Seriously, just play Gloomhaven or something.

I can't speak to the specific scenario this was in reply to, but the DS! Quick Start adventure setup is created specifically to teach the rules in slow manageable chunks with encounter designs that get progressively more complex and open to avoid just this sort of thing; as well as teach GMs via showing how good encounter design works. It specifically does not do things like "open field full of ranged attackers" or the like.

 

[Campbell]

Spoiler

The first encounter of Road to Broadhurst does take place in a mostly open field, although the cart you have with you is quite amenable to pushing people into. More than that though the victory condition involves taking out the leader of the group of radenwrights (ratmen) before minions can steal 3 crates of medicine off the cart. Playing keep away is quite useful because minions individually have worse action economy.

Players need to divert attention between keeping minions off the cart and doing the maestro in.

Another thing to watch for is that radenwrights have a malice feature that creates rat walls. I'm likely going to lean into that when I run.

This is a very movement intensive fight. I think it's useful to remember you can trade your main action for a maneuver or a move action - the Director should probably remind players.

The other important element to remember is that these are minions and there is damage carryover so one chunky attack will take out 3-4 minions sometimes.

Suffice it to say I have not seen it at the table yet, but as written it's very important that Directors utilize the victory conditions and noted tactics for each fight and not just fight it out in the middle.

Side tangent: One of things you can do with knockback specifically that is not immediately intuitive is use it to send your allies where they need to be. Knockback targets creatures, not enemies and you can always stop forced movement short if need be.