Contemporary Simulationist TTRPGs [+]

[Aldarc]

Hi! I wanted to start a Plus thread for people to talk about Simulationist TTRPGs, especially for people who love simulationism, with a special focus on the contemporary landscape of Sim-focused games. What (relatively) new Sim-focused games are out there from the past fifteen or so odd years? How do new approaches to Sim perhaps differ from older Sim-focused games? That sort of thing.

Ideally this thread will stay positively focused on games designed to cultivate and appeal to a simulationist play agenda. I don't think that we need to negatively criticize non-Simulationist games to talk positively about Simulationist games, what these Sim-focused games do well, or even how these Sim-games may approach the Sim play agenda in different ways.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

BRP just got a new edition a couple years ago which will be getting more expansions/splats.

Runequest's latest edition is 7 years old and still getting new publications for the immediate future.

Same with Mythras, which is technically within your 15 year limit, just barely.

I'm not aware of really any other popular sim-focused game systems that have contemporary editions. All of the above are ultimately descendants of the runequest/brp system from the late 70s.

 

[kronovan]

I would categorize flavors of the Cepheus Engine as contemporary simulationist. Its SRD is based upon Mongoose Traveler 1e, but there's flavors that diverge away from the far future SciFi of Traveler to more contemporary time frames. Like Traveller it works with the premise that PCs will advance through the same career, or a number of careers, during character creation. With the idea that they'll be about as competent they'll ever be upon completion. Those careers give PCs skills that are quite granular and intended to be played out in more simulationist way.

A few of the publishers that have created CRBs reflecting their take on the SRD, have also published companions, settings and design guides that make it more contemporary. There continues to be a steady stream of publications being released for it, so potential, contemporary themed content on the horizon. I like simulationist TTRPGs as much as I like light more narrative focused ones. I partiucularly like simulationist for Military and Historical Fantasy themes. Other than CE and the already mentioned BRP family of TTRPGs, which I own and homebrew with, I don't know of any other recent publications. But no doubt there's others out there.

 

[lepharaon33]

That’s a great idea for a thread! I’ve always enjoyed Simulationist games for the sense of consistency and immersion they create. I think in the past 10–15 years, we’ve seen some interesting developments — newer systems tend to streamline the rules while still keeping that grounded, cause-and-effect feeling.


Games like Mythras, The O, Zweihänder, or even Ironsworn take simulation in dif

Hi! I wanted to start a Plus thread for people to talk about Simulationist TTRPGs, especially for people who love simulationism, with a special focus on the contemporary landscape of Sim-focused games. What (relatively) new Sim-focused games are out there from the past fifteen or so odd years? How do new approaches to Sim perhaps differ from older Sim-focused games? That sort of thing.

Ideally this thread will stay positively focused on games designed to cultivate and appeal to a simulationist play agenda. I don't think that we need to negatively criticize non-Simulationist games to talk positively about Simulationist games, what these Sim-focused games do well, or even how these Sim-games may approach the Sim play agenda in different ways.

 

[The Firebird]

I guess the first question is to define what we mean by simulationism. Sam Sorensen has a recent take that has prompted some commentary.

For me, when I think of a world as 'simulationist' I'm looking for a large degree of separation between the GMs role as a referee and the GMs role as a worldbuilder. When they are sitting at home constructing the world, they have a lot of creativity to think about questions like "what conflicts would make for a fun story" or "how will I make sure this world generates interesting gameplay". But when they are refereeing, those questions should leave their mind; their only interest is in adjudicating the world appropriately.

For this reason, I find it important to have fixed things the GM can rely on when adjudicating in play. This can either be previously established material (e.g., there is a doctor in this town) or previously established rules (e.g., there is a 50% a doctor is in the town). If the players ask "is there a doctor in town" and the GM has to make up a procedure, that is a "failure" point of the game/system.

(I put "failure" in quotes because it really isn't a big deal and I don't want to come across as extreme).

I think it's interesting that random generation techniques are very practical now but that hasn't led to a revival in interest in simulation. A lot of questions that need to be answered can be automated with an appropriate ruleset. (E.g., how many people live in this town? What is the distribution of professions? What is each family's income and what assets do they have? How much income does the lord make?)

I've seen attempts to do this, like fantasy town generator. You can do something similar with worldographer. However, the town maps are not very high quality, especially for printing. Donjon gets demographics but no map.

I feel like the issue is that none of the tools out there are quite good enough for what is a very hard problem. Can you simulate (1) at a fine level of detail but (2) present it to the user such that they can avoid most of that underlying detail? None of the generators I've seen have accomplished (2); it requires the GM to pick which NPCs are important and what the conflicts are before play.

 

[Aldarc]

I have more thoughts about your post, but I have an absence of time to address everything. So for now...

I think it's interesting that random generation techniques are very practical now but that hasn't led to a revival in interest in simulation.

The thing is, I'm not so sure. I would like to direct you to a post I made in the other thread that prompted this one:

FWIW, I don't think that contemporary approaches to TTRPGs are necessarily opposed to simulationism as was earlier discussed. However, I suspect that it may have shifted somewhat from "simulation of game world as expressed through the mechanics" to "simulation of game world as expressed through the fiction." This is just me pondering. Not necessarily articulating a fully-thought out thesis.

Edit: For example, I think that this can be seen in how there was a subset of the OSR community that was intrigued by FKR. FKR is basically about minimal/minimized mechanics, but GM as the world simulator.

I think that it's possible that there is a contingent of contemporary sim fans that are skeptical of mechanics as the means to simulationism. There are arguably a number of new simulationist games out there that veer towards the rules light side of things as a result.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think that it's possible that there is a contingent of contemporary sim fans that are skeptical of mechanics as the means to simulationism. There are arguably a number of new simulationist games out there that veer towards the rules light side of things as a result.

That's exactly right, and it goes back to the origins of the first schism in wagaming (which you alluded to) between Kriegsspiel and Free Kriegsspiel.

Kriegsspiel was very much simulationist, but the three issues that kept arising were that it was too cumbersome (because it was so rules-heavy), it was hard to attract referees (because there were so many rules), and arguably it wasn't simulationist enough, because the rules couldn't cover all the realities of warfare.

The proposed solution was Free Kriegsspiel, which replaced (wait for it) rules with rulings by an experiences referee (someone high up in the military). It solved the first two problems, and it was argued that it solved the third problem as well, because the referee could apply actual knowledge to the various situations as opposed to mechanistically applying a rule that did not adequately simulate what happened.

FKR (Free Kriegsspiel Revolution) fans take that approach to TTRPGs, believing that you can actually have better simulationism (whether of game, world, or genre) through similar means- adherence to "invisible rulebooks" of a shared world/genre and rulings consistent with that, instead of complex rules.

For purposes of this thread, I'd argue that a lot of the interesting modern sim games are actually rules lite and FKR games.


...but that brings up an interesting issue. Because I've noted in the past that there is ... difficulty ... at times distinguishing between iterations of rules lite games that people might argue are "simulationist" or "narrativist." (The ones that are more gamist tend to stand out with specific "win" conditions)

Honestly ... a lot will depend on the intentionality of the table. One that are more geared to FKR generally tend to promote simulationist play, while rules lite games that encourage shared authority or narrative components tend to promote narrativist play.

EDIT: TLDR .... complexity != simulation

 

[Deset Gled]

This is probably a relatively hot take for a + thread, but...

Dungeons and Dragons.

D&D has always had significant simulationist elements, from it's roots as a wargame and extending through every edition. It is 100% okay to say "I value simulationism in my D&D game". Some people will mock you for this. Some ENWorlders will mock you for this. They are wrong, as any one-true-wayism of D&D is wrong.

That being said, 3.0e was probably the height of simulationism in D&D largely due to influence from Peter Adkinson, and I doubt we'll see it matched in future editions. 2e gained a notable amount of simulationism over time (by means of it's many, many expansions). 5e is arguably towards the lower end, but the elements are still there. And I don't think 5e 2024 moves the needle much in either direction from 2014.

 

[Aldarc]

This is probably a relatively hot take for a + thread, but...

The language does seem written to provoke and take stabs at other people.

 

[Aldarc]

For purposes of this thread, I'd argue that a lot of the interesting modern sim games are actually rules lite and FKR games.

Mothership!