Level Up (A5E) Removing Pointless Death (+)

[Anonymous3]

Maybe the best solution, instead of forcing no-die mechanics into a game, is to encourage them to play a game that has them already? Maybe I should just tell them we're going to try something more narrative like Daggerheart?

I would like to believe that a new system would help you but given your death toll track record I think you're likely to find a new way to kill your players regardless of how hard it is. You can take a horse to water, you can't force it to drink.
Good luck.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe the best solution, instead of forcing no-die mechanics into a game, is to encourage them to play a game that has them already? Maybe I should just tell them we're going to try something more narrative like Daggerheart?

That can work, provided they want to play something more narrative in the first place.

 

[TwoSix]

I would like to believe that a new system would help you but given your death toll track record I think you're likely to find a new way to kill your players regardless of how hard it is. You can take a horse to water, you can't force it to drink.
Good luck.

I feel like the odds of having 2-3 characters die in the first few sessions, all of them choosing to roll to live (because they can't bear the thought of the -1 Hope loss of taking a Scar), and all of them failing is somewhere around 95%.

 

[lichmaster]

Yeah, I was wondering if there was another way to handle it? I was feeling inspired by Dragonbane and the Year Zero Engine games to attack the ability scores.

I could permanently drain a Hit Die each time. If you're at 0 HD and go down - that's the end. But it might unduly punish 1st level characters.

IDK your players I but can ensure you that many players hate the idea of having permanent unrecoverable penalties.
Also, both of the choices you mentioned are useful to prevent death on the short term and to make it much more likely on the long term.

From what I gather based on the whole thread, it looks like tweaking the mechanics can only mitigate your problem.

Out of curiosity: how often are your players failing 3 death saves before someone can help? How often are they hit while down? And do you call "TPK" when all PCs are unconscious at 0 hp but not actually dead?

 

[Micah Sweet]

IDK your players I but can ensure you that many players hate the idea of having permanent unrecoverable penalties.
Also, both of the choices you mentioned are useful to prevent death on the short term and to make it much more likely on the long term.

From what I gather based on the whole thread, it looks like tweaking the mechanics can only mitigate your problem.

Out of curiosity: how often are your players failing 3 death saves before someone can help? How often are they hit while down? And do you call "TPK" when all PCs are unconscious at 0 hp but not actually dead?

I feel like long-term/indefinite injuries and conditions can work, provided some way to fix them is potentially available, even if special and/or expensive resources have to be gathered for it.

Otherwise, if you're right, it seems you are saying that a player would rather have their PC die than suffer any sort of permanent injury, which to me makes the claim that the players are very attached to their PC and need the DM to ask their permission before they can die...dubious.

 

[FrogReaver]

I feel like long-term/indefinite injuries and conditions can work, provided some way to fix them is potentially available, even if special and/or expensive resources have to be gathered for it.

Otherwise, if you're right, it seems you are saying that a player would rather have their PC die than suffer any sort of permanent injury, which to me makes the claim that the players are very attached to their PC and need the DM to ask their permission before they can die...dubious.

I don’t know why both cannot be true.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don’t know why both cannot be true.

If both are true it would be pretty intense from my perspective. "My PC cannot die unless I say so, and I will if you, the evil GM, allow any long-term harm to befall them". Honestly that's not a game I want to run.

 

[lichmaster]

I feel like long-term/indefinite injuries and conditions can work, provided some way to fix them is potentially available, even if special and/or expensive resources have to be gathered for it.

That's why I said permanent and unrecoverable. I'm ok if penalties are recoverable. Older editions had level or ability drain that could eventually be recovered. It can even be useful to propel the story, it's a major setback that can become a new focus.

The main issues are about character viability and amount of penalty: having an important ability score drop by 1 or 2 isn't gonna be anything major (or even barely noticeable), but having it drop by 3 or 4 could be too severe.

Along these lines: it could be stipulated that PCs can only die during pivotal moments (the thread is about "pointless deaths"), so outside of those they may just lose their equipment. A setback, potentially impactful, but not necessarily crippling. Plus, the PCs may want to go and get their equipment back -> more adventure

Otherwise, if you're right, it seems you are saying that a player would rather have their PC die than suffer any sort of permanent injury, which to me makes the claim that the players are very attached to their PC and need the DM to ask their permission before they can die...dubious.

That's not what I was going for.

 

[Blue]

One struggle I've had as a GM is the pressure of building thrilling, challenging encounters that aren't too over-tuned that they risk TPKs at every turn. Invariably, it happens, and my campaign comes to a screeching halt. This isn't just "the occasional TPK" or "they made bad decisions." This is literally every campaign I've run since around the year 2000. Even my first Level Up campaign stumbled before the characters could reach 3rd level.

I don't fudge dice rolls and I roll in the open so it's hard to keep characters alive in standard d20 games without having every enemy take prisoners; making suboptimal tactical decisions to favor the players; running easy and boring fights.

Not a one of those looks like pointless death, so I don't understand the question.

If the players are chosing to enter into a challenge and wager the stakes of lethal combat, it is impossible for that death to be pointless. Not a opinion, that's the stakes the players are wagering, it by definition has a point. They are putting that forth as their wager. They don't have to -- they can run, they can negotiate, they can bypass, they can change strategies mid-challenge potentially.

So everything you suggested is robbing player agency. It's saying that even if they choose to wager their character's lives for the chance to overcome this challenge, you won't force them to pay. Making the wager worthless, the tension gone, and frankly them more likely to make the wager when it will result in their death because they know there are no repercussions.

To avoid meaningless death, make sure that as a GM if you force a challenge with battle-to-the-death as stakes, cutting player choice (including doing things like entering a dangerous dungeon) out of it, then make sure there are other end conditions available for the challenge, even if it's just a reasonable chance to escape.

 

[Retreater]

Out of curiosity: how often are your players failing 3 death saves before someone can help? How often are they hit while down? And do you call "TPK" when all PCs are unconscious at 0 hp but not actually dead?

We call TPK when no one's available to save the unconscious and they're all surrounded by enemies set on killing them. Sometimes we call TPK when 3/4ths of the party is dead and one character escaped, alone in hostile territory.
Death saves don't matter when you don't have healing and you're surrounded by flesh eating monsters, right?