D&D 5E (2024) Thoughts on New Bladesinger?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Zardnaar
Legend
Until lvl 6 yes.
Kurotowa
Legend
As a connoisseur of gishes, and the many flavors that 5e offers them in, I've come to an opinion. The gishes born from a full caster base class that add a more weapon focused subclass cannot deliver. Because of the mechanics and power budget of 5e class design, the subclass goes to a lot of trouble to produce a character with a slightly stronger basic attack than just using an offensive cantrip, but who's still stronger when using a spell slot. And as soon as you hit a high enough level that you have a spell slot for every round of combat in a day, making a weapon attack is a liability and your subclass is dead.
Bladesinger Wizard, Valor Bard, War Cleric, Moon Druid, it's the same story for all of them. You're a full caster trying to "Hello fellow kids" as a martial warrior and doing a bad job of it. Being a full caster is just better, because it's where a majority of your class power budget still lies. The effective gish subclasses come at it from a martial base class, where a subclass dash of spellcasting is a small but noticeable increase in utility and damage. That or it's baked in from the start, like Paladins.
So no, I don't expect much from the Bladesinger. There's a reason the 2014 version advice was "Take it for the overpowered defensive traits meant to let you survive in melee and just play as a normal full caster." Trying to squeeze a full martial package into a full caster subclass just doesn't work.
Bladesinger Wizard, Valor Bard, War Cleric, Moon Druid, it's the same story for all of them. You're a full caster trying to "Hello fellow kids" as a martial warrior and doing a bad job of it. Being a full caster is just better, because it's where a majority of your class power budget still lies. The effective gish subclasses come at it from a martial base class, where a subclass dash of spellcasting is a small but noticeable increase in utility and damage. That or it's baked in from the start, like Paladins.
So no, I don't expect much from the Bladesinger. There's a reason the 2014 version advice was "Take it for the overpowered defensive traits meant to let you survive in melee and just play as a normal full caster." Trying to squeeze a full martial package into a full caster subclass just doesn't work.
Zardnaar
Legend
Similar opinion exception is war cleric.
Youre playing a primary caster but try and stack up as much damage on your single attack and use your bonus action.
In practice it means spirit guardians, spiritual weapon or armor of faith, shillagh and true strike shenanigans. Primarily a caster.
Only when they are in Bladesong, which is a boost, but is not all the time especially in tier 1-2.
This is a play choice, not a design problem IMO. I am not going to argue that attacking is more effective than using a spell slot offensively. You may have a point there, but the game is not about doing what is the most powerful.
A Bladesinger can be an extremely effective melee character. You assume that you are attacking instead of using spell slots. That is not how it works if you are playing a melee-oriented Gish; you are using most of your spell slots either out of combat or as a reaction or bonus action to augment your swordplay. It is not a choice to attack or use a spell on a given action, for the most part you use your spell slots on other things than actions.
I've played multiple Bladesingers (2014) to 20th level. Most of my 4+ level spell slots were spent on Contingency and False Life. 1st-3rd level spell slots were on Shield, Absorb Elements and Misty Step and occasionally Blur, Silvery Barbs or Protection from Evil and Good. I played a hard melee tank every time I went Bladesinger and I was very, very good at it. Would I have been more powerful casting Psychic Scream, Prismatic Spray and Synaptic Static on three random rounds in combat instead of using those three slots for 9th level false life-Contingency-5th level False Life out of combat? Maybe, but we didn't die as it was and I could go toe-to-toe with any martial in the party.
2024 has even better spells to lean into this play style - Death Armor, Backlash, Arcane Vigor .... these spells are not competing with an attack action, and the best 2024 melee oriented spells that are competing with the attack action (Mirror Image, Conjure Minor Elementals, Yolanda) offer a huge bonus to either defense or to melee damage on future rounds in exchange for losing the first round action.
2024 has weapons masteries and that is the only thing that makes the 2024Bbladesinger lose a step. But grab the feat and you are right there.
Also using the new feats; Spell Fire Adept with Bladesinger Extra Attack and Truestrike is going to be quite a bit of extra damage as compared to basic extra attack.
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I feel like the best way to encapsulate the issue with "gish" design is to compare the Bladesinger to the Eldritch Knight.
The Eldritch Knight gets one-third of the spellcasting that a Wizard gets.
The Bladesinger gets better AC and a better Extra Attack in tier 2 than what other martials get.
Which sums up the issue with "gish" subclasses and player expectations: rather than these subclasses being made as "something the character can do in addition to their core competencies", they have to be not just a primary fixture of the playstyle but top-tier in that area in order to be worthwhile. You have to have that element of "they do [martial thing] better than actual martials" or they get dismissed as useless.
Which is where Bladesinger falters for me, especially the 2024 incarnation: they haven't fixed the needlessly overpowered aspects of the subclass, nor have they worked what the subclass does into something that feels like a natural but balanced option for the player rather than "you get better Extra Attack than martials themselves get".
(It also suffers from the usual 2024 problem of "gish" classes/subclasses that omit Weapon Mastery and thus become significantly empowered by a one-level dip for such and other features.)
The Eldritch Knight gets one-third of the spellcasting that a Wizard gets.
The Bladesinger gets better AC and a better Extra Attack in tier 2 than what other martials get.
Which sums up the issue with "gish" subclasses and player expectations: rather than these subclasses being made as "something the character can do in addition to their core competencies", they have to be not just a primary fixture of the playstyle but top-tier in that area in order to be worthwhile. You have to have that element of "they do [martial thing] better than actual martials" or they get dismissed as useless.
Which is where Bladesinger falters for me, especially the 2024 incarnation: they haven't fixed the needlessly overpowered aspects of the subclass, nor have they worked what the subclass does into something that feels like a natural but balanced option for the player rather than "you get better Extra Attack than martials themselves get".
(It also suffers from the usual 2024 problem of "gish" classes/subclasses that omit Weapon Mastery and thus become significantly empowered by a one-level dip for such and other features.)
mellored
Legend
If your not spamming Alarm, Unseen Servant, and Tensors Floatig Disk as a wizard, you're missing out as a wizard.
As well as Leomunds Tiny Hut and Phantom Steed at level 5.
As for Bladesingers, seems fine. I expect it will mostly be used in multiclassing with a Martial character.
As well as Leomunds Tiny Hut and Phantom Steed at level 5.
As for Bladesingers, seems fine. I expect it will mostly be used in multiclassing with a Martial character.
Zardnaar
Legend
If youre playing a wizard youre missing out
4/5 of those spells may barely matter depending on DM.
5th ones Phantom Steed.
5th level wizards no longer D tier at least. Subclass depending that can be level 3 though.
Cap'n Kobold
Legend
4-6 times per day covers the majority of the adventuring most groups actually do.
