D&D General Frustating Misunderstandings About Warlocks

[Mind of tempest]

I wonder if the misunderstanding about the Warlock invocation boost being limited to Eldrtich Blast is because the Beyond character generator is mentioning the power its name, and I haven't figured out yet how to change it to a different one.

would seem likely as pen top paper character building is far slower than what being a youtube person will allow assuming a small scale operation

 

[Mistwell]

I think True Strike at least is on par with EB for DPR. And I know I’m in the minority here, but since 2014 I’ve felt that Eldritch Blast + Hex spam DPR is an aggressively mid way to build a warlock. Like, it works fine, it keeps up with the Joneses. But if you’re playing a casting class for the DPR, you’re leaving a lot of value on the table. Control spells are almost always more efficient. Mind Spike is the true GOAT cantrip.

Agree completely. EB is the "I hit it with my sword" option. It's fine, but uninteresting and isn't likely to change the dynamic of the battle or do much to combine with what the other PCs are doing.

 

[Charlaquin]

The problem is that sny other way to build Warlock is that - a build you need to plan for and majority of the players could not care less for that. And if you don't optimize then nothing beats EB + Hex + Agonizing Blast in raw damage.

You could say the same of a ranger who only ever uses their spell slots on Hunter’s Mark and shoots stuff with a longbow. Or a fighter who just goes longsword, shield, dueling style, and champion. The existence of a simple, easy to play build for a class is not a knock against that class.

 

[Ashrym]

Still, with multiple attacks it scales with Agonizing blast so well it is best damage option, which was Hat's point

The problem is that sny other way to build Warlock is that - a build you need to plan for and majority of the players could not care less for that. And if you don't optimize then nothing beats EB + Hex + Agonizing Blast in raw damage.

The EB arguments presume damage is the optimal way to go. This is something with which I disagree. I'm a fan of Chill Touch, for example, because it's still a large damage die and prevention of healing can be useful.

IME the bonus effects and control spells are more beneficial than a bit more damage, especially when we don't really see that damage benefit until tiers three and four.

EB spam is an okay option for damage spam, but I do think the focus on damage sells other options short.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Agree completely. EB is the "I hit it with my sword" option. It's fine, but uninteresting and isn't likely to change the dynamic of the battle or do much to combine with what the other PCs are doing.

I actually like it when it does—-chr bonus is meh. Actually pushing people around with it is a different story!

 

[Not a Decepticon]

You could say the same of a ranger who only ever uses their spell slots on Hunter’s Mark and shoots stuff with a longbow. Or a fighter who just goes longsword, shield, dueling style, and champion. The existence of a simple, easy to play build for a class is not a knock against that class.

Ranger discourse is pretty clear about the fact it is an issue for Ranger as well. Simple, easy to play build that is so good that it will be picked by majority of the players and even experienced players need to go out of the way to match it with complicated optimizing and/or admit their biggest issue with it is that same simplicity, then it defines the class.

Meanwhile Fighter can be easily functional as sword & broad champion build and it exists for people who want that simplicity....but pretty much every other subclass except Banerett/Purple Dragon Knight will surpass it easily, without demanding more optimization or complexity.

The EB arguments presume damage is the optimal way to go. This is something with which I disagree.

In words I once heard in discussion regarding how good 3.5 Frenzied Berserker was - "the best condition you can give an enemy is dead".

 

[Kurotowa]

The EB arguments presume damage is the optimal way to go. This is something with which I disagree. I'm a fan of Chill Touch, for example, because it's still a large damage die and prevention of healing can be useful.

The problem with Chill Touch it that it's, finally, what it says on the can. A melee spell attack with a range of Touch. And a Warlock being able to survive in melee is a whole can of worms, where a lot of people swear they're too squishy and need something like a Fighter dip for Heavy armor.

Now, Chill Touch with an Eldritch Knight Fighter? Who can easily go for a melee build and substitute the cantrip into an Attack action? That I can see. But Warlocks aren't the best for running up and slapping people in the face.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Thinks that anyone who doesn't like their agency being messed with should just not play the class at all. Weird stuff. There are many ways to play the class.

Okay I am going to push back onto this. I agree with Pointy hat on one crucial thing - Warlock is good BECAUSE it comes with pre-baked slot for an NPC to put in and build a story together with the DM. I absolutely loathe how 5.5 did everything possible to minimize and all but delete the role of the patron to the point it now is not something I can roleplay before Warlock takes 3rd level and RAW I am not allowed to have patron talk to Warlock before level 10. I'm sorry you had such bad experience with DM's that abused the trust between player and DM, but the solution is not to remove the whole roleplaying appeal of the class to make it "big number go up" like Wizard. Hat is right if you don't want to deal with the Patron, don't play Warlock. If you are adamant that the class cannot have such mechanic like Patron, then I would rather Warlock be not included to begin with.

 

[Ashrym]

In words I once heard in discussion regarding how good 3.5 Frenzied Berserker was - "the best condition you can give an enemy is dead".

Dead is the best condition. The party has to get the opponents there in the first place and preventing healing helps with that.

The problem with Chill Touch it that it's, finally, what it says on the can. A melee spell attack with a range of Touch. And a Warlock being able to survive in melee is a whole can of worms, where a lot of people swear they're too squishy and need something like a Fighter dip for Heavy armor.

Now, Chill Touch with an Eldritch Knight Fighter? Who can easily go for a melee build and substitute the cantrip into an Attack action? That I can see. But Warlocks aren't the best for running up and slapping people in the face.

Find Familiar can turn that into a range of 100 ft, or Fey Patron facilitates Misty Step teleportation away. It's not like Warlocks can't use touch spells.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Thinks Celestial Patron is a god when it very likely is not.

At your table. It's an extremely reasonable take to believe it's either a god or someone sitting at the right hand of a god, like a saint, which makes the difference between a celestial warlock and the divinely powered classes mostly a matter of different mechanics.

Thinks that anyone who doesn't like their agency being messed with should just not play the class at all.

Despite the screaming of warlock players on ENWorld, who either have been or are anticipating being traumatized by an aggressive DM, this is an extremely common take by anyone who hasn't yet had a warlock fan screaming into their face about the issue.

Warlocks are still in their 1E paladin era, where arguing about the class' flavor and who has a say over it are very much still open questions. It's definitely a class one should discuss with their DM before play, to make sure everyone's on the same page.