What Does "Simulation" Mean To You? [+]

[Reynard]

Level doesn't have to be a purely-metagame element in the slightest, and can very well exist in the setting. All it needs is that some sort of in-setting training is required in order to level (which IMO should be the case anyway).

There's real-world examples* of "levels" all over the place, mostly to do with having to complete or fulfill one step in a training and-or experience+ process, and prove you have done so, before moving on to the next.

* - Grades 1 to 12 in school. Belt colours in martial arts. Apprentice-journeyman-master in trades. Loads of others.
+ - which experience points model beautifully!

At first glance, sure. but any actual consideration and the whole idea falls apart. Why does getting your brown belt make you better at resisiting poison? Can an PhD candidate really safely fall from twice the height as a Freshman? Why am I so much better at punching people after I get my CDL?

 

[Aldarc]

Level doesn't have to be a purely-metagame element in the slightest, and can very well exist in the setting. All it needs is that some sort of in-setting training is required in order to level (which IMO should be the case anyway).

This is less simulationism and more post-hoc rationalization of game mechanics that likely gets "grandfather claused" in simply as a result of D&D having it for such a long time.

 

[A_Carrington]

I think calling Hit Points simulationist is a stretch for nearly any definition of the term. Hit points don't represent a thing in the fiction, they a metagame element ties to other metagame elements like level.

What do you mean? They represent how much damage you can take.

A dragon is clearly one of those supernatural exceptions, so claiming that realism only matters if all supernatural elements are stripped away is IMO disingenuous.

Right, a dragon is an element instantiated by the rules. The rules tell us what it can do : how fast it can fly, how much damage it can take, and the like.

Similarly, a 20th level barbarian is an element instantiated by the rules. The rules tell us what it can do : how fast it can run, how much damage it can take, and the like.

 

[Reynard]

What do you mean? They represent how much damage you can take.

No. They ARE how much damage your can take before being taken out of play. They don't represent anything in the fiction, though. The are purely a gamist construct. If they were simulationist, your weight and size would have a biig impact, and your skill level with picking locks certainly wouldn't.

 

[A_Carrington]

No. They ARE how much damage your can take before being taken out of play. They don't represent anything in the fiction, though. The are purely a gamist construct. If they were simulationist, your weight and size would have a biig impact, and your skill level with picking locks certainly wouldn't.

The thing they represent in the fiction is damage.

How they work in the simulation depends entirely on how we choose to construct our simulation. If we assign size as a modifier to hit points, then size affects hit points in the simulation. If we don't, it doesn't. There's no correct way to simulate any concept, and simulation doesn't mean refers to real life. It can't, since spells and dragons are simulated.

 

[Reynard]

The thing they represent in the fiction is damage.

Except when they represent luck. or skill. Or a close shave. Which we have had so many arguments over it is baffling that one would actually assert "they represent damage."

How they work in the simulation depends entirely on how we choose to construct our simulation. If we assign size as a modifier to hit points, then size affects hit points in the simulation. If we don't, it doesn't. There's no correct way to simulate any concept, and simulation doesn't mean refers to real life. It can't, since spells and dragons are simulated.

1st level fights: The ogre swings at you with his club and it connects causing 12 points of damage, obliterating your spine and sending you spinning into the void. Roll a new character.
10th level fighter: The ogre swings at you with his club and it connects causing 12 points of damage, grazing your shoulder. Your turn.

 

[pemerton]

I don't use "simulation" to mean follows a rule. In the context of RPGing, that tends to mean that all RPGing is either simulatiionist, or "GM decides" - and that seems like an unilluminating classificatory scheme.

A simulation is paradigmatically a simulation of something. It has some sort of correctness condition - we can talk about a simulation being more or less accurate, for example.

In the context of RPGing, we can relax that a bit and say that by "simulation" we mean is a real thing <say, a dice rolling procedure> that is representational of an imagined thing. But not all rules and rule-mandated procedures are representational. D&D's hit points are just one example of that.

 

[Celebrim]

Are there any rules that don't simulate anything?

Yes. If the "inputs" of the rules include things that exist outside of the fiction, that is they are in the meta about the fiction but not in the simulated reality, then that rule doesn't simulate something.

"Rule of Cool" is an example of a rule that almost certainly isn't simulating something. You could probably make up some sort of explanation to explain why if something is cool it succeeds, in the way that for example "The Wheel of Time" had in universe the idea of "Ta'veren" to explain why remarkable coincidences would happen around heroes, but that sort of thing tends to be a retroactive justification for why stories work the way they do and not necessarily an attempt to simulate an imagined world.

 

[A_Carrington]

Except when they represent luck. or skill. Or a close shave. Which we have had so many arguments over it is baffling that one would actually assert "they represent damage."

1st level fights: The ogre swings at you with his club and it connects causing 12 points of damage, obliterating your spine and sending you spinning into the void. Roll a new character.
10th level fighter: The ogre swings at you with his club and it connects causing 12 points of damage, grazing your shoulder. Your turn.

Yes, damage depletes your luck, skill, heroic fortitude, courage, passion, power of friendship, determination, conveniently stashed gadgets, or whatever else is appropriate in the moment. Healing recovers these.

Your example doesn't appear to communicate any idea in particular.

This may be an example of a rule that isn't simulating anything :

However, we might argue that this is just a different level of abstraction. Every part of the simulation is carried out in the minds of the participants, so this isn't really fundamentally different. Also, every simulation makes choices about what is important to simulate. Most games don't simulate red blood cell production rates, and this game doesn't simulate certain aspects of NPC defeat. There isn't a correct set of decisions about levels of abstraction to use for any particular part of a simulation. We can choose any set of game design goals.

 

[Reynard]

Yes, damage depletes your luck, skill, heroic fortitude, courage, passion, power of friendship, determination, conveniently stashed gadgets, or whatever else is appropriate in the moment. Healing recovers these.

Your example doesn't appear to communicate any idea in particular.

I see. You are using "damage" tautologically. That isn't particularly helpful for talking about simulation, though.