D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[Chaltab]

This thread is hilarious.

I remember when "The monsters know what they are doing" was a darling.

But Oops! The new WotC books aren't beloved, so this person must be a hater!

It might just be that D&D 2024 kind of sucks. Lots of people seem to feel that way. No one bats a thousand. Maybe stop white knighting the massive corporation and actually listen to people you previously agreed with.

Good job passing the "tell me you haven't read the thread without telling me you haven't read the thread" challenge.

 

[Charlaquin]

Ironically due to 10 HD, a guard Captain really should have a proficiency bonus of +4 not +2. So if you increase the proficiency bonus and decrease its strength down to 14 you pretty much have the same attack bonus which will be required for its challenge.

It does have a +4 Proficiency Bonus.

The problem is saving throws as the other topic with Mike Mearls states.

Ever since 3rd edition wears saving throws became linked with ability scores monsters need ridiculously high ability scores to not be instantly vaporized or mind-controlled by magic spells.

If there's anything formulaic that I might advocate for a 6th edition is for saving throws to not be linked to ability scores because ability scores are two variable for that to work in the math.

This could be fixed pretty easily just by adding Proficiency Bonus to all saves by default. Or by removing it from spell save DCs; that’s a six of one, half a dozen of the other kinda thing.

This thread is hilarious.

I remember when "The monsters know what they are doing" was a darling.

But Oops! The new WotC books aren't beloved, so this person must be a hater!

It might just be that D&D 2024 kind of sucks. Lots of people seem to feel that way. No one bats a thousand. Maybe stop white knighting the massive corporation and actually listen to people you previously agreed with.

Speaking for myself, I’d say he’s still a darling. I still love his work despite disagreeing with him pretty strongly on almost all of these points. The one thing I would agree with him on is that it’s clear 2024 places a lower priority on maintaining the veneer of simulationism that 2014 kind of half-heartedly kept up. And, his body of work was kind of built on showcasing that veneer.

 

[dave2008]

There is so much power creep. SO MUCH.

Every class is powered up. You could argue that martials need more oomph; but if that's the case, why bump up wizards and sorcerers too?

Pc choices have lost a lot of significance. You don't have to manage when to use your (allegedly limited) rages when you regain one when you roll initiative.

A lot of changes were made solely to make it easier to optimize your character.

That is a bunch of word salad to me (to be clear I am saying that it is to me - not that it definitely is). Like I said, I have not noticed any appreciable difference in play.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you for the response. Can you clarify what you man by this:

..., but that and the consequence free features of everything just pushed it outside the range I am interested in.

 

[Chaltab]

That is a bunch of word salad to me (to be clear I am saying that it is to me - not that it definitely is). Like I said, I have not noticed any appreciable difference in play.

Also "they've made it easier to optimize your character" isn't a bad thing. Optimization being hard is why there can be such disparity between good and bad builds in some systems and why the difficulty curve of 3.X-based video games looks like it was plotted by the Tazmanian devil.

 

[Nightfly]

Minsc from Heroes of Baldurs Gate, released 2019... Warrior Commander

WOW. The difference between these two statblocks is really striking. Never mind how much better the physical stats are for the Warrior Commander, Minsc 2014 has mental stats of 8, 6, and 10; Warrior Commander 2024 has 14, 16, and 14. I realize the latter's CR is three more, but come on. He's basically Captain America -- very literally superhuman.

So sure it's a great stat line, but like maybe the CR 10 Warrior Commander isn't supposed to be some rando, it's supposed to represents the big warrior hero's like Minsc or Conan. They are only nameless because the DM is the one who should be supplying the name, history, etc...

I hear you, but a CR 10 enemy is not going to be the BBEG of any campaign, unless it's a really short campaign. I'm fine with legendary humanoids having stats of 20+, but I'm still not convinced the Warrior Commander is supposed to be legendary. King of the Dwarves having a STR higher than the PCs can obtain without a boon or relic? Sure. But this dude with less than half the CR of an ancient dragon? That feels really weird to me.

Maybe it's a necessary evil in order make this NPC sturdy enough to make saving throws, as others in this thread have suggested. That's an excellent point. But even a necessary evil is still an evil.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Maybe it's a necessary evil in order make this NPC sturdy enough to make saving throws, as others in this thread have suggested. That's an excellent point. But even a necessary evil is still an evil.

Well, it certainly points to the unintended consequences of the system design.

Keith's objections to this model really require a lower power level across the board. You don't run into this situation in pre-WotC D&D. TSR didn't give us level 20 commoners, for instance.

But WotC has owned D&D for more than half of its existence and none of this should be a surprise. That said, one doesn't have to like it, which he is coming to realize he doesn't.

Again, the ways he wishes the game was different suggest, to me, that he'd be happier with a lower powered OSR game.

 

[Sorinth]

I hear you, but a CR 10 enemy is not going to be the BBEG of any campaign, unless it's a really short campaign. I'm fine with legendary humanoids having stats of 20+, but I'm still not convinced the Warrior Commander is supposed to be legendary. King of the Dwarves having a STR higher than the PCs can obtain without a boon or relic? Sure. But this dude with less than half the CR of an ancient dragon? That feels really weird to me.

Maybe it's a necessary evil in order make this NPC sturdy enough to make saving throws, as others in this thread have suggested. That's an excellent point. But even a necessary evil is still an evil.

I mean the difference between a Strength of 20 & 21 is for all intents and purposes nil. If it was a Str of 20 would everything about this stat block be perfectly fine and you'd have no problems? If yes then I feel this is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

And who said anything about being legendary? Is Minsc a legendary person? I don't see that being the case, he's famous in Baldur's Gate, he's maybe known a little throughout the Sword Coast and probably nobody's ever heard of him in the rest of the realms. He's not legendary so the stat block works for a non-legendary person.

 

[Charlaquin]

Also "they've made it easier to optimize your character" isn't a bad thing. Optimization being hard is why there can be such disparity between good and bad builds in some systems and why the difficulty curve of 3.X-based video games looks like it was plotted by the Tazmanian devil.

But if you don’t have to work hard to make an optimized character, how are we supposed to be able to tell the good, proper, honest roleplayers apart from the bad, naughty, evil powergamers?

(If it’s not obvious, the above is meant sarcastically.)

 

[Parmandur]

WOW. The difference between these two statblocks is really striking. Never mind how much better the physical stats are for the Warrior Commander, Minsc 2014 has mental stats of 8, 6, and 10; Warrior Commander 2024 has 14, 16, and 14. I realize the latter's CR is three more, but come on. He's basically Captain America -- very literally superhuman.


I hear you, but a CR 10 enemy is not going to be the BBEG of any campaign, unless it's a really short campaign. I'm fine with legendary humanoids having stats of 20+, but I'm still not convinced the Warrior Commander is supposed to be legendary. King of the Dwarves having a STR higher than the PCs can obtain without a boon or relic? Sure. But this dude with less than half the CR of an ancient dragon? That feels really weird to me.

Maybe it's a necessary evil in order make this NPC sturdy enough to make saving throws, as others in this thread have suggested. That's an excellent point. But even a necessary evil is still an evil.

Most Campaigns end at around Level 10 or 11, if not earlier. So CR 10 is fairly top of the line. There is no stat block for a "King of the Dwarves"...and in fact the Warrior Commander would be an excellent fit for a Dwarven King.