D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[HatWearingFool]

What is "D&D" though? Because from reading what various OSR "purists" recounting their experiences of more "low magic" D&D, my time with those 3rd party games "felt" more like classic OSR D&D than 3e to 5e has.

edit: I ask because I've had people assure me that unless you generate characters as "3d6 in order, no re-rolls" you ain't playing REAL D&D. Or unless you allow every single character option from all official sourcebooks in your campaign, it isn't "REAL" D&D.

So I don't know what that means.

Edit 2: is D&D points of light frontier adventures? Is it purely dungeon crawling? Is it space pirate adventures in Spelljammer? Is it gothic horror mysteries in Ravenloft? Is it gonzo planes-hopping in Planescape? Is it post-apocalyptic survival in Dark Sun? Is it solving murder mysteries in Baldur's Gate? What the hell IS D&D or NOT D&D?

Obviously the line is going to be different for everyone, but I can’t imagine making the required changes to get to what I think of as low fantasy without flying past said line.

Edit: and I’d also say that if your changes are subtractive rather than additive you are probably drifting from current ‘D&D’

I’d say you’re playing D&D if you can use just about any rule or option in the core rule books.

Edit: And I think when most people say ‘D&D’ they mean the current edition. If you ask me to play a game of D&D and I show up to an original dark suns campagin I’m going to be surprised. I expect people not playing the current edition to mention that when discussing
‘D&D’. 2nd Advanced D&D is a very different game than 5e 2014, at this point you aren’t playing D&D anymore you are playing 2nd edition AD&D

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And I think when most people say ‘D&D’ they mean the current edition. If you ask me to play a game of D&D and I show up to an original dark suns campagin I’m going to be surprised. I expect people not playing the current edition to mention that when discussing
‘D&D’. 2nd Advanced D&D is a very different game than 5e 2014, at this point you aren’t playing D&D anymore you are playing 2nd edition AD&D

I think if you're showing up to a D&D game run by someone who's not very online, you have no idea what edition they'll be playing. There are people who are happily still playing the campaign they started back in 1979, with tattered books and all. In many cases, they have no idea there are later versions of the game, because it's irrelevant to them.

I have friends of a friend who are playing a 2E campaign -- and had been, for decades -- and when asked if they wanted to try a more recent version of the game were not receptive to the idea, to put it mildly.

 

[tetrasodium]

Obviously the line is going to be different for everyone, but I can’t imagine making the required changes to get to what I think of as low fantasy without flying past said line.

Edit: and I’d also say that if your changes are subtractive rather than additive you are probably drifting from current ‘D&D’

I’d say you’re playing D&D if you can use just about any rule or option in the core rule books.

Edit: And I think when most people say ‘D&D’ they mean the current edition. If you ask me to play a game of D&D and I show up to an original dark suns campagin I’m going to be surprised. I expect people not playing the current edition to mention that when discussing
‘D&D’. 2nd Advanced D&D is a very different game than 5e 2014, at this point you aren’t playing D&D anymore you are playing 2nd edition AD&D

You don't have to go to /past Tolkien low fantasy to hit lower fantasy or darker fantasy, but lots of people are voicing frustration because it went from taking some effort§to get from 5.14 high fantasy with near zero consequence to 5.24 having a much higher bar due to it shifting straight up to impossible to fail zero consequence super hero very bright high fantasy. It's just easier to dismiss people by pretending that anything less is an immediate descent into the grimmest darkest grim dark fantasy ever and it makes sense to continue doing so given that strategy has largely ensured that wotc provided over a decade of fairly exclusive focus on "munchkin" desires.


§IMO too much by far. The base power could have been fueled down and a small sidebar could have covered DM's who want to dial it up. Doing that would have acknowledged both as a valid play style though

 

[HatWearingFool]

I think if you're showing up to a D&D game run by someone who's not very online, you have no idea what edition they'll be playing. There are people who are happily still playing the campaign they started back in 1979, with tattered books and all. In many cases, they have no idea there are later versions of the game, because it's irrelevant to them.

I have friends of a friend who are playing a 2E campaign -- and had been, for decades -- and when asked if they wanted to try a more recent version of the game were not receptive to the idea, to put it mildly.

I agree people are running all editions. I’m just saying I’d expect someone inviting me to a 2e session to mention the the fact rather than just ask if I want to play D&D. Although I would ask which edition they are playing.

I expect most people assume someone is speaking about the current edition of D&D if they mention it without an edition tacked on. With some confusion shortly after new version releases.

 

[HatWearingFool]

You don't have to go to /past Tolkien low fantasy to hit lower fantasy or darker fantasy, but lots of people are voicing frustration because it went from taking some effort§to get from 5.14 high fantasy with near zero consequence to 5.24 having a much higher bar due to it shifting straight up to impossible to fail zero consequence super hero very bright high fantasy. It's just easier to dismiss people by pretending that anything less is an immediate descent into the grimmest darkest grim dark fantasy ever and it makes sense to continue doing so given that strategy has largely ensured that wotc provided over a decade of fairly exclusive focus on "munchkin" desires.


§IMO too much by far. The base power could have been fueled down and a small sidebar could have covered DM's who want to dial it up. Doing that would have acknowledged both as a valid play style though

Again where is the bar for lower fantasy? I honestly think I could run the same type of games with either edition. IMHO Both would take a lot work to get to much lower fantasy outside of “gritty” optional rules already present. And let’s be honest even the grittiest rules in core rule books don’t tone it down that much.

I think I could take a character made with either set of rules and put them in a game run under either set of rules and no one would notice unless I went out of my way to highlight something.

But I also think people that highly modify the D&D rules or think it has a narrow sweet spot of playable levels would be better served by finding a game that embodies those play styles. If they are having fun great, more power to them, carry-on. But don’t be upset when a new edition moves things even farther from something you are already struggling to make fit. IMHO the only thing D&D has done well since 3e is play D&D which really isn’t like any other fantasy genre. It’s become its own very different thing that is quite different than most fantasy.

I’m currently playing in a “Witcher” campagin. Which is fine. I like the Witcher but I said at the start it’s not a great fit for D&D characters. And at level 4 the cracks are starting to show… can’t wait to see level 14.

That said we are all having fun I, but I’m pretty sure the Witcher-ness will only be window dressing soon. There isn’t really much in the Witcher world to challenge a group of even mid-level 5e (2014 or 2024) characters. And I don’t consider the Witcher world to be low fantasy by any means. It has organized magic traditions and schools and modified humans and fantastical monsters, but it’s definitely a much lower power sandbox than core rules D&D.

 

[dave2008]

I mentioned it a bit later in another post, stuff like spectral wings or respeccing after a long rest. 2024 does pretty much everything to have features not have downsides and / or build decisions never have the player stuck with something that is not all that useful in whatever situation they find themselves in.

Thank you for the response. I still don't really get it and I can't comment much on this take. I guess that has never been a noncable issue to me (as a DM) since we started playing 1e in the 1980s. Everyone plays the game different. We have never cared much about resource management, tracking things, or dealing with unavailable features. In my almost 40 years of playing I don't ever remember telling a player they were out of spell slots!

 

[tetrasodium]

Again where is the bar for lower fantasy? I honestly think I could run the same type of games with either edition. IMHO Both would take a lot work to get to much lower fantasy outside of “gritty” optional rules already present. And let’s be honest even the grittiest rules in core rule books don’t tone it down that much.

I think I could take a character made with either set of rules and put them in a game run under either set of rules and no one would notice unless I went out of my way to highlight something.

But I also think people that highly modify the D&D rules or think it has a narrow sweet spot of playable levels would be better served by finding a game that embodies those play styles. If they are having fun great, more power to them, carry-on. But don’t be upset when a new edition moves things even farther from something you are already struggling to make fit. IMHO the only thing D&D has done well since 3e is play D&D which really isn’t like any other fantasy genre. It’s become its own very different thing that is quite different than most fantasy.

I’m currently playing in a “Witcher” campagin. Which is fine. I like the Witcher but I said at the start it’s not a great fit for D&D characters. And at level 4 the cracks are starting to show… can’t wait to see level 14.

That said we are all having fun I, but I’m pretty sure the Witcher-ness will only be window dressing soon. There isn’t really much in the Witcher world to challenge a group of even mid-level 5e (2014 or 2024) characters. And I don’t consider the Witcher world to be low fantasy by any means. It has organized magic traditions and schools and modified humans and fantastical monsters, but it’s definitely a much lower power sandbox than core rules D&D.

Im not even sure how to respond to this. Your entire post is largely based on a foundation of confusion over a basic English audfix. Where is the bar for ShortER coldER widER cheapER fastER sharpER?

 

[HatWearingFool]

Im not even sure how to respond to this. Your entire post is largely based on a foundation of confusion over a basic English audfix. Where is the bar for ShortER coldER widER cheapER fastER sharpER?

I think the response you came up with is fine.

 

[Remathilis]

All that to say that unless you view D&D as a "toolkit" to customize, you're pretty much stuck with super heroic fantasy.

And unless you view Shadowrun as a "toolkit" to customize, you're pretty much stuck with urban fantasy cyberpunk. Where's my hard sci-fi planetary exploration setting for Shadowrun?

 

[mamba]

Thank you for the response. I still don't really get it and I can't comment much on this take. I guess that has never been a noncable issue to me (as a DM) since we started playing 1e in the 1980s. Everyone plays the game different. We have never cared much about resource management, tracking things, or dealing with unavailable features. In my almost 40 years of playing I don't ever remember telling a player they were out of spell slots!

I never tracked torches or food either, but the current iteration just does not feel grounded to me. In their effort to file off any rough edges they created something that just has nothing to hold on to for me. These are no longer races and creatures in a world, they are artificial stat blocks that were placed in it to provide a certain experience. I am no longer exploring a world, I am taking a ride in Disneyland. Yes, that is exaggerated, but it is the best way I can describe the shift I perceive and how it affects my interest.