D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

I must be blind because I'm not seeing much negativity from either side here. Seems to me like pretty reasonable debate from both sides, all things considered with it being the internet and all
Writing off an entire book with the phrase, "chosen to fully indulge a decade’s worth of munchkin demands for MOAR POWER!" (exact quote, emphasis in original) does not strike you as negativity? I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It's intentionally pejorative language disparaging a significant chunk of the community and the designers who made it--characterizing them as either weak/permissive or as unthinking/uncaring, leaning more to the latter with a term like "indulge". But either way, not positive in the least. Same with "munchkin", which--outside of the game that builds its humor on that word being a negative--is openly pejorative, characterizing folks who want successful characters as being unruly, disruptive, and childish. Seems pretty negative.

And keep in mind, I find 5.5e a heavily mixed bag from a starting point I already don't like very much. I'm no 5e booster, whether it be 5.0 or 5.5e. I have no dog in the 5.0/5.5 race.
 
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You can do that the other way too. Of course WotC has done neither.

As a DM I would rather they give me everything and then I and my group can choose to dial it down (like we have). But everything comes at this a bit differently!
You've so extensively houseruled 5e that on more than one occasion I've seen you directly claim that 5e doesn't have a particular problem someone is venting about and defend that position for pages before finally admitting how you've houseruled some relevant aspect of the rules to avoid the problem in question. I don't even consider your heartbreaker edition to be 5e.
 

Writing off an entire book with the phrase, "chosen to fully indulge a decade’s worth of munchkin demands for MOAR POWER!" (exact quote, emphasis in original) does not strike you as negativity? I'm not sure why it wouldn't.
Oh I guess I thought we were just talking about people posting in this thread here, so I wasn't considering the original blog post itself. Even still though I don't think the blog post was particularly negative against people who like 5.5e, mostly just against the new rules themselves. I think he made good points even if I don't agree with most of them
 

I assume you're saying you changed like, the rulesets over and that's what wasn't noticed? Stealth and Perception DC 15 checks etc?

Cuz I'd be surprised if no one noticed that their Conjure Woodland Beings, Spirit Guardians spells, healing was buffed, a bunch of character features were altered (buffed, changed, nerfed).
They mostly don't.

That's stuff that rules nerds like us get all fussed about. Most players don't care that much. And how often do those things come up in most games? Healing being buffed is just more numbers and I am here to tell you, with decades of DMing under my belt and years of running D&D Club for beginners, most players don't care about minor changes to mechanics. They just don't even notice.

A few things do get their attention. The change to ranger pets was instantly rejected by one of my players: she was not summoning a spectral entity or whatever, she wanted a pet. And in those cases, I just let them use whatever version suits them. They all work together just fine.

DnDBeyond requires new publications to continue to work with existing 5e stuff. And it does, pretty seamlessly 99% of the time. The 1% gets endless discussion on this forum, but it's not representative of what is happening with most players, IMO. Most don't even know that D&D has had different editions.
 

They mostly don't.

That's stuff that rules nerds like us get all fussed about. Most players don't care that much. And how often do those things come up in most games? Healing being buffed is just more numbers and I am here to tell you, with decades of DMing under my belt and years of running D&D Club for beginners, most players don't care about minor changes to mechanics. They just don't even notice.

A few things do get their attention. The change to ranger pets was instantly rejected by one of my players: she was not summoning a spectral entity or whatever, she wanted a pet. And in those cases, I just let them use whatever version suits them. They all work together just fine.

DnDBeyond requires new publications to continue to work with existing 5e stuff. And it does, pretty seamlessly 99% of the time. The 1% gets endless discussion on this forum, but it's not representative of what is happening with most players, IMO. Most don't even know that D&D has had different editions.
Yeah that's fair, though I guess at least one person noticed you moved over to new rules, the ranger 😆

But I guess it depends on the tables you play with- I grew up with nerds playing in our living rooms and at game stores, and most of the people in our groups liked to engage with the rules. We read over the books, we looked at options, we talked about it between sessions. Even today, most of the people at my tables engage with the mechanics of the game outside of the game- not all, mind you, but most. These are the people that really enjoyed A5E over 5e cuz of the deeper options and more interesting combat maneuvers etc. But you're right, many players don't care about mechanics and such.
 
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That's a fair point 😂
But if he's saying "we switched systems and no one noticed the character changes" because they never look at their sheets... you didn't really switch systems if you're still letting them play by the old rules.

This isn't "the character changes are so small that they're basically the same," it's "I changed a bunch of stuff on my players sheets and now realize that they never look at their sheets, they just keep using the 2014 stuff." So maybe I just misunderstood the point he was making with his experience.
It might also be that many changes are circumstantial. They’re to a specific spell or subclass ability. In some cases it even depends how you use the spells. Even when my cleric PC casts spirit guardians he doesn’t boost his speed and start running around the board.

So there are lots of reasons why the changes don’t make a dent.

I totally understand the blog authors position though. He’s spent a long time fine tuning a set of principles around a paradigm which has now shifted. He’s faced with the choice of changing or becoming obsolete which must be very frustrating. Though it’s probably unavoidable. I hope he adapts and revisits his previous monsters to come up with some new approaches.

I hadn’t read the blog before and am enjoying it so thanks for the reference in the first place. Even if it was for a sad reason.
 

You can do that the other way too. Of course WotC has done neither.

As a DM I would rather they give me everything and then I and my group can choose to dial it down (like we have). But everything comes at this a bit differently!
I have tried, over the past few years, to look at the design from this perspective: Which direction is easiest to move away from, but hardest to move toward from somewhere else?

Because as a starting point, "give the GM everything and let them pare back" isn't a bad first pass....but its imperfections show up right quick in many ways. E.g. survival-based challenges are, from reports I've heard from plenty of real people on this forum, pretty difficult to do in a fulfilling way in 5e, because it started from "giving the GM everything" in terms of players having tools to address those problems, such that if you have even like two full-casters, survival almost certainly won't be a problem. (E.g. goodberry, tiny hut, druidcraft/prestidigitation/thaumaturgy, control flames, etc.) Given that that has made life...rather hard for them, but the alternative is forcing everyone to jump through hoops just to survive, or to skip early levels? There may not be a clear answer, and so we have to start from the ground up recognizing two opposing interests (folks who do not want to be burdened with survival, and folks who want survival to be an interesting, stiff challenge).

Conversely, something like "well-balanced encounter building" is something that is profoundly difficult to just wish out of nothing (just ask any long-time PF1e GM how they feel about building encounters for characters above level 12.) A system that starts out primarily unbalanced is very difficult for each individual GM to beat into shape. A system that is balanced--balanced well and wisely, not trivally and stupidly, and thus absolutely the hell not "make everything identical"--is trivial to make unbalanced. Just ignore the rules and do whatever you want. There is no difficulty in making a balanced thing unbalanced. Anyone can take a balanced centrifuge and make it unbalanced--just remove something, or swap something to a new spot. It's quite hard to go from something lopsided to something sufficiently well-balanced that you can be confident spinning it up won't result in problems.

And some things are not to my preference, but should be the starting point for some stuff. For example, that's why I advocate for "novice levels" (almost certainly by a different name), and have for years and years now. Because that way you have levels specifically designed to give the "zero to slightly-above-zero to (etc., etc., etc.) to maybe just the tiniest bit hero" crowd--who, despite my tongue-in-cheek phrasing, I really do respect and admire, even if I don't share their tastes--something made to make them happy, while not forcing the entire rest of the player base to dance to their tune before they're allowed to get to the stuff they find fun instead. Likewise, simulationist fans generally want (perhaps even need!) well-structured, consistent, logical skill and save DC tables, with clear and effortful boundaries for what can or can't be done etc. Even though most users will want to be more loosey-goosey than that, these players need it, and it's much, much harder to create those tables from scratch for yourself, than it is to just pretend the tables don't exist and instead wing it by intuition. Such tables are important enough to several simulationism fans I've met that I see them as necessary, even though I personally have zero use for them and find them...contrary to the experiences I've enjoyed most in the D&D space.

If we want a big-tent game, that's where we have to look for our tentpoles. The things that matter enormously to specific interests and which don't matter (or even matter negatively) to others, but which are hard for the "this matters a lot" crowd to put together

And on some things...you are unfortunately embarked, you have to pick a specific stance. When that happens, you do your best to build options, alternatives, or tools to make the GM's life easier when they go off the beaten path, knowing that your product can't be perfect but is still worthy as long as you gave it your best. Good example here being how one user on here (whom I won't name, but you might guess) advocates for making the game absolutely maximum difficulty as its default setting, and telling GMs to ratchet back from that difficulty level if they feel like it. This was advocated, not because it is a difficult design thing to make difficult monsters--that's actually trivial and the poster in question recognizes that--but because it's a difficult social task to get your players to accept being put up against enormous difficulty when they're used to lower-difficulty experiences.

That's something I don't think rules can or should try to fix. The players need to be sold on the GM's choices by the GM. Trying to force that through with the excuse of "well I'm just running the game as written!" doesn't actually help things and simply will foster more resentment and more problems. Instead, this tells me that GMs need more and better tools for doing that "sell us on it" thing--advice, processes, and tools to help GMs build and maintain the trust required for experiences like that. Such tools exist for many different interests (that's part of what the X-card and O-card are for, as an example, just not for this specific thing), so there's almost certainly more that can be done on that front. Then the game can set a middle-of-the-road difficulty, balanced challenge, so that it only requires light tweaking to go to "hardcore" challenge or "casual" challenge as the group desires.
 

Oh I guess I thought we were just talking about people posting in this thread here, so I wasn't considering the original blog post itself. Even still though I don't think the blog post was particularly negative against people who like 5.5e, mostly just against the new rules themselves. I think he made good points even if I don't agree with most of them
How we express our ideas often matters just as much as what we choose to express.

I am as guilty as anyone of failing to remember this, but that doesn't alter the truth of it.
 

All that to say that unless you view D&D as a "toolkit" to customize, you're pretty much stuck with super heroic fantasy.
And in a meaningful way, you always have been.

Otherwise we'd never have heard from Gygax himself that HP can't be meat-points, because that would mean gaining levels somehow magically transformed a Fighter from a feeble weakling into being more durable than multiple warhorses.

Or, for a simpler example...a level 8 Fighter in OD&D is called a "Superhero". It's been there this whole time.
 

oh, of course they were, but in the past I could see the creature behind the stat block and saw the stat block as a representation of it. Now there just is no creature any more, just a collection of abilities that the designers thought go well together
As I said, "Inconceivable!" Aren't they always "just a collection of abilities that the designers thought go well together", isn't that what makes it a game?
Again, I am not trying to deny your experience but I think one issue at work here (and probably in other cases) is that the people who cannot see the difference are trying to pick away at the causation of the change in perspective to assign some rationale to it and it comes across as a denial of the perspective.
I know that I am tempted to ask you to throw up two statblocks and explain to me what difference is the trigger? but I also know that nothing useful will come from the exchange.
 

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