D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[Sorinth]

I thought people wanted level one/two characters to be regular people without the high fantasy powers taking an oath/representing a god/making a contract/etc. would give them???

I doubt there's a consensus on wanting that.

 

[SkidAce]

... I was lucky in that the person who taught me D&D wasn't some killer DM or Monty Haul type (which seem to have been plentiful in the 1980s), but an older second cousin who was way before her time DMing-wise (basically acting like DMs do now). So I think what people teach others has a big impact here too.

I feel there was more of the "before their time" DMs than people think. I only recall one bad then.

But the "killer" DMs certainly got/get a lot more publicity.

 

[SkidAce]

--double post--

 

[saviirkad]

Appreciate the responses. I think I remember a video that talked about warlocks kind of like, shopping around? Like reaching out to potential patrons, getting some small powers, before settling on a full patron-warlock relationship. I think that idea is not present in the written lore of the PHB but I don't think it's particularly bad. Feels like it'd fit well for a warlock player who wants to be the one who initiated the contact, rather than one enticed by the patron. Or just a warlock that hasn't settled on a patron at lvl 1 or lvl 2, which would be neat to explore. Could be fun to explore a relationship the warlock has with a patron they do not choose, either positively, no hard feelings, or negatively, like an eldritch cult who view the warlock's decision as a betrayal of their powerful benefactor.

 

[billd91]

Quote from article:
"The sense I get from 5E24, on the other hand, is that the designers began with mechanics they wanted to implement, then came up with narratives to rationalize the mechanics. Which is how you end up with warlocks signing lifetime contracts with supernatural entities whose identities they don’t even learn until they’re level 3."

Yep! It's good to know I'm not the only one who had an issue with that.

As I see it, this is just one of the trade-offs involved in game design. Sometimes, you know the game will be easier to work with on the back-end as a designer or developer if you do make a particular decision - so it's a mechanics-first decision, rather than fiction-first. And, honestly, all games are going to have elements like this. It's part of the process of coming up with a reasonable playability experience.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm not sure what the fluff text says*, but it never really bothered me because D&D has always like this. Clerics have always got their 1 & 2 level spells from their own faith and belief. It wasn't till after that until they had to actually associate with messengers and then directly with deities. I figured the same was going on for Warlocks. They're just messing with magics that others do not. They may be pulling extradimensional energies but only at third level do they hit a level where they have to actively deal with anybody to continue farther.

*Currently at work during a very slow pre-holiday week and can't check the books right now.

Well, "always" depends on how you interpret OD&D clerics, where there was simply no discussion of the matter at all. I suspect when Gygax dropped them he thought they'd just be pseudo-Christian and that was as far as it went, but other than a vague feel in that direction, OD&D actually had no required load associated with what god(s) a cleric associated with at all; it wasn't difficult to never really decide throughout their whole career if the player didn't care and the GM didn't get his oar in.

 

[plecostomus]

The 2024 PHB lore text for Warlocks and Clerics, fwiw.

Warlock

Warlocks quest for knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. They often begin their search for magical power by delving into tomes of forbidden lore, dabbling in invocations meant to attract the power of extraplanar beings, or seeking places of power where the influence of these beings can be felt. In no time, each Warlock is drawn into a binding pact with a powerful patron. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as angels, archfey, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, Warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.

Warlocks view their patrons as resources, as means to the end of achieving magical power. Some Warlocks respect, revere, or even love their patrons; some serve their patrons grudgingly; and some seek to undermine their patrons even as they wield the power their patrons have given them.

Once a pact is made, a Warlock’s thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked with mere study. Most Warlocks spend their days pursuing greater power and deeper knowledge, which typically means some kind of adventure.

Warlock additionally has under the Pact Magic feature:

Level 1: Pact Magic
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells.

I don't see a later feature (such as the Level 3 subclass selection) with lore text indicating when the Warlock finds out who their patron is, just this early text that insists the Warlock doesn't know at Level 1. Presumably they know by Level 9, but the Level 9 feature also has some curious lore suggestions (such as that you may have never talked to your patron directly before then)...

Warlock Level 3 subclass selection text

Level 3: Warlock Subclass

You gain a Warlock subclass of your choice. The Archfey Patron, Celestial Patron, Fiend Patron, and Great Old One Patron subclasses are detailed after this class’s description. A subclass is a specialization that grants you features at certain Warlock levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Warlock level or lower.

Warlock Level 9 Contact Patron feature

In the past, you usually contacted your patron through intermediaries. Now you can communicate directly; you always have the Contact Other Plane spell prepared. With this feature, you can cast the spell without expending a spell slot to contact your patron, and you automatically succeed on the spell’s saving throw.

Once you cast the spell with this feature, you can’t do so in this way again until you finish a Long Rest.

Cleric

Clerics draw power from the realms of the gods and harness it to work miracles. Blessed by a deity, a pantheon, or another immortal entity, a Cleric can reach out to the divine magic of the Outer Planes—where gods dwell—and channel it to bolster people and battle foes.

Because their power is a divine gift, Clerics typically associate themselves with temples dedicated to the deity or other immortal force that unlocked their magic. Harnessing divine magic doesn’t rely on specific training, yet Clerics might learn prayers and rites that help them draw on power from the Outer Planes.

Not every member of a temple or shrine is a Cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their devotion through prayer and rituals, not through magic. Many mortals claim to speak for the gods, but few can marshal the power of those gods the way a Cleric can.

Clerics are safe from any lore mandate that demands they somehow don't know their god before Level 3.

Warlocks are almost safe- except for the Pact Magic description. For Warlocks there is also a suggestion that they commonly intentionally seek their patron ("they often begin their search for magical power..."). The Warlock players I know prefer patron-by-accident or patron-by-necessity (think Wyll in BG3) so the suggested route is irrelevant to them. The Warlock who intentionally looks for a patron is going to be a very different kind of character.

The Playtest 5 UA for Warlock had more specific details and timeline for their acquisition of a patron, suggesting that their low-level powers are from "bargains from lesser entities", and that was rescinded in the final PHB.

The Warlock stuff is kind of stupid and is a good example of coming up with a mechanical property (subclass at Level 3) and then not giving enough thought to the lore explanation for it, especially given all the ways people play Warlocks. So if you feel you cannot do something the book does not endorse, then yes, this will annoy you.

 

[Sorinth]

Appreciate the responses. I think I remember a video that talked about warlocks kind of like, shopping around? Like reaching out to potential patrons, getting some small powers, before settling on a full patron-warlock relationship. I think that idea is not present in the written lore of the PHB but I don't think it's particularly bad. Feels like it'd fit well for a warlock player who wants to be the one who initiated the contact, rather than one enticed by the patron. Or just a warlock that hasn't settled on a patron at lvl 1 or lvl 2, which would be neat to explore. Could be fun to explore a relationship the warlock has with a patron they do not choose, either positively, no hard feelings, or negatively, like an eldritch cult who view the warlock's decision as a betrayal of their powerful benefactor.

No doubt that could be a fun way of doing things, but should that be the standard for ALL warlocks, probably not.

With Cleric's I don't mind it so much because most gods have multiple domains, and even an off brand domain could work as a you serve your god in a unique way. The subclasses here are how you serve your god and not which god you serve. With Warlocks & Sorcerers the subclasses don't have that kind of distinction.

 

[Parmandur]

Maybe he decided he would get more attention by going nutso.

I mean, it is a business model.

 

[Arilyn]

Maybe he decided he would get more attention by going nutso.

I doubt it. Keith is writing a blog, not doing You Tube videos, as far as I know. His readers are 5e fans, buying his books in order to get advice and inspiration running and playing D&D. It's a risk for him financially if he decides to mostly stay away from 5.5. He is consulting his fans on the best way forward. He might continue doing his thing with 5.5. Keith has not made any plans yet. This is hardly a I'm going to burn all my WotC books and take up Draw Steel or the OSR moment. He genuinely seems to be feeling down about it all.