Why do you play games other than D&D?

[Micah Sweet]

How does that work? You're playing a traditional sort of investigative game, the players analyse the clues and think they've found a solution, then what? They apprehend the person they believe to be the murderer and they say nothing? No further evidence is found? How do the players know they solved it?

Their evidence is accepted (and action likely taken) by whatever authority in the setting has jurisdiction and to which they answer. That doesn't necessarily mean they're right, but it's as close as you can practically get in real life.

 

[soviet]

Their evidence is accepted (and action likely taken) by whatever authority in the setting has jurisdiction and to which they answer. That doesn't necessarily mean they're right, but it's as close as you can practically get in real life.

So the player characters think they've solved it, they give the evidence to the authorities (which by the way is probably a disclosure nightmare, good luck getting a conviction), and the person is taken away to be arrested.

In your hypothetical game, the PCs could be wrong. They might have misunderstood the clues. They jumped to the conclusion that it was Bob but in fact it was Jim. The players don't and can't ever know for sure if they were right. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Micah Sweet]

So the player characters think they've solved it, they give the evidence to the authorities (which by the way is probably a disclosure nightmare, good luck getting a conviction), and the person is taken away to be arrested.

In your hypothetical game, the PCs could be wrong. They might have misunderstood the clues. They jumped to the conclusion that it was Bob but in fact it was Jim. The players don't and can't ever know for sure if they were right. Is that what you're saying?

Yup. That's how I would handle it, because that's how investigations work in real life.

 

[soviet]

Yup. That's how I would handle it, because that's how investigations work in real life.

OK.

Micah's approach (as I understand it): the PCs think they've figured out who did it. The culprit is arrested. The PCs will never know for sure if they were right.

Brindlewood Bay (as I understand it): the PCs think they've figured out who did it. The culprit is arrested. The PCs will never know for sure if they were right.

I get that there is an objective predefined truth in your scenario and not in the BB scenario, but if the players never know what that truth is then subjectively from a player experience POV I'm not seeing a big difference.

I understand why as a matter of preference you would prefer the first scenario though (and instinctively, having never played or read BB, I'm with you on that).

 

[soviet]

Not how I see it. As I said, the GM stands in for reality. The Players (through their PCs) stand in for real people. So in a traditional game, the mystery is created outside the purview of the Players just like how in real life the mystery is created outside the purview of the real people investigating it. In BB, the mystery's answer is created through a process during active play at least partially under the Player's control, and which did not exist until that creation process.

Again, how are both those styles equally far from solving a real mystery?

It's maybe worth saying that in real life mysteries are not created. They exist but they have not been authored. Being authored means that they are intended to be solvable and the clues to that solution exist within possible reach. Real life mysteries and investigations are not like that, and many simply cannot be solved in any meaningful way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OK.

Micah's approach (as I understand it): the PCs think they've figured out who did it. The culprit is arrested. The PCs will never know for sure if they were right.

Brindlewood Bay (as I understand it): the PCs think they've figured out who did it. The culprit is arrested. The PCs will never know for sure if they were right.

I get that there is an objective predefined truth in your scenario and not in the BB scenario, but if the players never know what that truth is then subjectively from a player experience POV I'm not seeing a big difference.

I understand why as a matter of preference you would prefer the first scenario though (and instinctively, having never played or read BB, I'm with you on that).

I know this is not how other folks play it, but for me "makes logical sense in-setting" has higher priority than "is a satisfying narrative". And I feel that way as a GM or Player.

 

[soviet]

I know this is not how other folks play it, but for me "makes logical sense in-setting" has higher priority than "is a satisfying narrative". And I feel that way as a GM or Player.

I don't think anyone has said any different? As I understand it the various suspects in BB are all meant to have a plausible means and motive to have committed the murder? (Even if the PCs have to work to find that out.) I don't believe BB play to revolve around approaching random strangers and saying 'I roll to see if this guy is the murderer'.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's maybe worth saying that in real life mysteries are not created. They exist but they have not been authored. Being authored means that they are intended to be solvable and the clues to that solution exist within possible reach. Real life mysteries and investigations are not like that, and many simply cannot be solved in any meaningful way.

I wouldn't say that "authored" is synonymous with "intended to be solvable". Authored just means created by someone. Your statement assumes a primacy of narrative that mine does not.

Of course, most authored mysteries will be potentially solvable, but I suspect most real life mysteries are potentially solvable too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think anyone has said any different? As I understand it the various suspects in BB are all meant to have a plausible means and motive to have committed the murder? (Even if the PCs have to work to find that out.) I don't believe BB play to revolve around approaching random strangers and saying 'I roll to see if this guy is the murderer'.

But the PCs in BB aren't finding out who did anything. They're coming up with their best educated guess and then using a game mechanic including a randomizing element that determines if they are right. It's literally Schrodinger's Mystery.

 

[soviet]

I wouldn't say that "authored" is synonymous with "intended to be solvable". Authored just means created by someone. Your statement assumes a primacy of narrative that mine does not.

Of course, most authored mysteries will be potentially solvable, but I suspect most real life mysteries are potentially solvable too.

You're telling me that you create mysteries that cannot be solved, and then when the players incorrectly think they have solved them, and go to the authorities about an actually innocent person, you say 'sure thing'?