D&D 5E (2024) This Feels Like 4E

[Reef]

And..that's where you lose me. Because that's awfully convoluted to get on average 1 extra point of damage a round. And sure, mechanically it works, and some players will kill for 1 extra point of damage. But I can't help but ask the rogue why exactly their character is putting away their weapon (in character). Narrativey it makes no sense, and trying to picture it doesn't look heroic to me...it just looks comedic. As if it was a parody scene.

Edit: just to reiterate, that's just my personal take. I know other people prioritize maximizing every rule advantage over any story elements. No judgements from me, but its not the way we run.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why would a rogue want to make three attacks in one turn…? Why wouldn’t they?

The question is why would they want to weapon juggle?

Rogues get two masteries and it never increases by level. It has already been declared that one of these two masteries is Nick. Which means you have one mastery left - and for rogues the Vex mastery is the obvious standout. In addition the rogue needs to use a Light weapon in their main hand - and a Finesse weapon for Sneak Attack. With the sole exception of the whip every single Finesse weapon has either Vex or Nick.

Rogues need to go through contortions to weapon juggle; they need to multiclass for starters and then unless they want to tank their to hit chance they need to either use a whip for all of 1d4 damage or they need to have a Str that just about matches their Dex. And Vex is a perfectly good mastery.

Like I say why would they want to? This feels to me more like theoretical optimisation games than anything.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I guess, but juggling gets you an extra half a point of damage per round on average! Not a big loss if your DM doesn’t allow it, but no sense leaving it on the table if juggling is allowed.

But it doesn't even do that outside special circumstances or multiclassing; if you have a Vex shortsword and a Nick dagger/scimitar then you don't have a third weapon mastery to allow your rapier to Vex. Unless you have a reliable method of getting Advantage your DPR probably goes down.

And that's before we even start talking about having magic weapons and needing a third primary magic weapon.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Something else, like making the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder.

Your attack action triggers ONE off hand attack. It’s not dependent on how many bonus actions you have.

 

[Charlaquin]

Your attack action triggers ONE off hand attack. It’s not dependent on how many bonus actions you have.

I don’t understand what you’re saying. One attack with your action plus one attack as part of that action with Vex, plus one attack from Dual Wielder as a bonus action equals three attacks.

 

[Charlaquin]

But it doesn't even do that outside special circumstances or multiclassing; if you have a Vex shortsword and a Nick dagger/scimitar then you don't have a third weapon mastery to allow your rapier to Vex. Unless you have a reliable method of getting Advantage your DPR probably goes down.

And that's before we even start talking about having magic weapons and needing a third primary magic weapon.

See my post above walking through it. Juggling gets you one rapier attack instead of a shortsword attack every other round, no multiclassing required. I suppose if you value Vex more than a higher damage die there’s no point. I think that’s worthwhile but your mileage may vary.

 

[tetrasodium]

Were they clear that they expect you to be able to juggle multiple weapons every round to maximize masteries? Or were they just clear that they didn’t want players to stress about having a weapon available when they attack? Two different things. And I’m not being rhetorical, I’m generally curious.

But my point stands, that even if this juggling was 100% intended, you are well within your rights not to use a rule that you feel is bogging down your game. I am sure they were clear on that part!

Yes. Explicitly clear

In the playtest I spent most of my time playing a fighter and I had a ball creating especially as the fighter was higher level and had more & more masteries unlocked I loved being able to play this minigame where alright first I wanna use this weapon because of this mastery property then my next attack will be this one where I can exploit what I did with the previous weapon. Super fun

Is Jeremy Crawford in the weapon mastery announcement video itself not authoritative enough source for you on what people keep telling you wotc said about weapon masteries during the playtest?

 

[Reef]

Yes. Explicitly clear

Is Jeremy Crawford in the weapon mastery announcement video itself not authoritative enough source for you on what people keep telling you wotc said about weapon masteries during the playtest?

That's fine. I appreciate the quote, as I hadn't seen it. It still doesnt change the fact that you are allowed to ignore it if it is not right for your game! That's also an explicit rule.

That's not being adversarial, if it is making for a worse game for your group (which it sounds like it is). But its your game. If you are enjoying the constant weapon juggling, have at it!

 

[Neonchameleon]

See my post above walking through it. Juggling gets you one rapier attack instead of a shortsword attack every other round, no multiclassing required. I suppose if you value Vex more than a higher damage die there’s no point. I think that’s worthwhile but your mileage may vary.

And see my point. Ending with a shortsword attack sets you up for next round with Vex. This is almost always worth it if you don't have a near automatic other source of Advantage and you expect the foe to live the round.

Just running the numbers fast your main shortsword attack does d6+Dex damage and to have dual wielder in 2024 rules you basically have a minimum Dex of 18. So we need Advantage to bring us an average of 1 point of DPR. Taking a near worst case scenario we're going to say the shortsword does an average of 8 damage. To reach break even (and not accounting for Sneak Attack or the lowered chance of whiffing all attacks) we therefore need Advantage to increase our chances of hitting by 12.5% for +1 damage

And it turns out that Advantage does this if your to hit number is anywhere in the 4-18 range. (throw in the effects of a Crit and we're better off in the 3-19 range).

You can weapon juggle with a rapier as a rogue because you think it's cool (I'd call it tacticool myself) but the DPR case for it being better than Vex is basically only when you have ultra-reliable Advantage from other sources, which generally means you are being a drain on party resources.