D&D General The 5e Ninja, would it be a class or a subclass?

[Clint_L]

whenever 'use multiclassing' comes up as the answer to build any hypothetical class fantasy my issue is that very often your desired features don't neatly fit into the two/three/whatever progressions, you end up with a bunch of other abilities that you didn't really want but couldn't not take because levelling doesn't work like that, if you want that 5th level feature you've got to take the other four levels first.

I agree. It's a balancing act with a class-based system. If you have very specific mechanical requirements for your character concept, it is almost impossible to get them exactly right within the class restrictions.

The main alternative is a skill-based system where each character is a bespoke creation. The problem with those systems is twofold: 1) they are extremely difficult for beginners to manage, and 2) you always wind up with more homogeneity, as experienced players converge on a few "optimal" builds.

Having played both, I really prefer a class-based system, despite the trade-offs you have to make, as overall you get much more variety.

To make something like "ninja" work for D&D (setting aside that they will never use that as a class name again), you have to just focus on the archetypal features that almost everyone can agree upon. What typically happens is that people get into the weeds of arguing why this or that personal preference is essential to the class. That's why, at that broad level, I don't think a new class would get any closer than what we already have in shadow monk.

The idea of a background has some merit if tied to a specific setting, I think, but waters down the concept quite a bit. A light cleric with the "ninja" background could be cool, but doesn't exactly speak to the archetype.

Edit: I think a significant amount of the "ninja" concept also comes down to your roleplaying choices, not class mechanics. To me, a monk is the obvious fit, but RPing a gloomstalker ranger, assassination or arcane trickster rogue, etc., could also easily work.

 

[Incenjucar]

Over the past week, I just watched the Octagon plus a handful of Cannon 80's Ninja films for the first time. Unarmed striking techniques played a role in those movies along with the Ninja weapons, acrobatics, stealth, and, often, the fun Ninja "toys" (e.g. smoke bombs, shuko and ashiko for climbing, tetsubishi (iron caltrops)) So, I, personally, would want unarmed striking techniques along with tripping/grappling techniques.

In PF at least, weaponless combat is pretty trivial to get. An unarmed attack is as good as a dagger, just non-lethal, and there are plenty of ways to make it lethal. The techniques (trip, grapple, push, disarm) are built in to the Athletics skill and there is a swashbuckler sub-class that specializes in them. Biggest gap is the toys.

A ninja class or subclass would probably need to have a few specialization options plus a generalist option. I see the core of the concept being "do unexpected things to bypass defenses and accomplish goals before your tricks can be adapted to". This differs from the modern rogue, who is so impossibly skilled that you can't adapt to them.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I wonder if shaolin monk should be a subclass of ninja instead of the current setup...

 

[jmartkdr2]

In Pathfinder, I find their Swashbuckler class works well for ninja characters. They are dex-based, are empowered by doing distracting things and tumbling (i.e. ninja flips), with options for performance, intimidation, or tripping/grabbing, they focus most of their damage on a big attack instead of standing still with multi-attacking, and they can apply their big damage to shuriken and other thrown weapons for a feat.

Port something like that into D&D and you just need to make sure they have some fun toys to use.

In Pathfinder 2e at least, I think there's room for ninja as a complete class - after all, we have slayers as opposed to rangers and daredevils as opposed to swashbucklers - gimme a couple hours and I could probably come up with a dozen focus spells for ninjas. I might need a while to come up with all the feats, but I'm sure it's doable.

But 5e is a different game and uses the concept of "class" differently, so the same argument doesn't apply.

 

[Tigris]

In Pathfinder 2e at least, I think there's room for ninja as a complete class - after all, we have slayers as opposed to rangers and daredevils as opposed to swashbucklers - gimme a couple hours and I could probably come up with a dozen focus spells for ninjas. I might need a while to come up with all the feats, but I'm sure it's doable.

But 5e is a different game and uses the concept of "class" differently, so the same argument doesn't apply.

Well I, and many others, would argue, that already slayers and daredevils (to a lesser degree) are too close to what is there already.

PF2 of course builds more on illusion of choice than 5E, so having similar classes, just with different names for abilities +small differences (which rarely mather) and another flavour etc. is more in line with what is there, but sure it also makes mechanically more sense, since classes in PF2 dont have 5e like subclasses making inter class builds so different from another (again mostly different names for abilities (and maybe different bonus damage on basic attacks) while still being spell or basic attacked focused)

 

[Incenjucar]

In Pathfinder 2e at least, I think there's room for ninja as a complete class - after all, we have slayers as opposed to rangers and daredevils as opposed to swashbucklers - gimme a couple hours and I could probably come up with a dozen focus spells for ninjas. I might need a while to come up with all the feats, but I'm sure it's doable.

But 5e is a different game and uses the concept of "class" differently, so the same argument doesn't apply.

That's a whole topic on its own, but I'm just providing some observations that could easily apply to 5E.

One huge hit vs. multiple big hits, but first has to be set up with a skill use, on a dex-first class that is both Str-friendly and Cha-friendly, with additional skill uses that incorporate various trickery so doing so is interesting, with slightly expanded weapon choices with a decent way to use fists. Maybe toss in a mystical tricks option. Make them a little tougher than the rogue, but with fewer ways to avoid consequences as a core build.

A bit more risk that you'll get your damage in than a rogue, but similar perfect round damage and a different cost mechanism for the Cunning Strike/Devious Strikes kind of abilities.

 

[Horwath]

Shadow monk/Assassin rogue multiclass

 

[Corinnguard]

Shadow monk/Assassin rogue multiclass

Several other posters on this thread have already brought up this particular multiclass build.

Here's a multiclass build for the Ninja that I came across recently:

Ninja - 5e Multiclassing

5emulticlassing.wikidot.com

It also makes use of the Shadow Monk/Assassin Rogue build everyone here has been talking about. One feature this build ought to use IMO is the optional feature, Steady Aim.

 

[Corinnguard]

Shadow Monk/Shinobi Wizard? Martial arts plus spellcasting.

 

[Silam]

Here's a multiclass build for the Ninja that I came across recently:

Ninja - 5e Multiclassing

5emulticlassing.wikidot.com

Wow, that’s a cool site concept! Though it’s a bit bare bones right now, but still interesting. I hadn’t heard of it. Maybe someone could build a better / more complete version of this…