D&D General The 10th level 2024 Monk can do 3 attacks with a BA, but only 2 with an AA

[Clint_L]

Monk 13/Druid 7 also gets you conjure minor elemental, which would be devastating on a monk. That’s five attacks at 1d10+2d8+modifiers. For utility, you’d also be a hell of an infiltrator.

Edit: oops, already mentioned.

 

[Silam]

Monk 13/Druid 7 also gets you conjure minor elemental, which would be devastating on a monk. That’s five attacks at 1d10+2d8+modifiers.

Yep, and with Warrior of the Mystic Arts, you can add 4 spellcaster levels, getting you a 6th level slot, so that can be 4d8. Plus one of your attacks can be a cantrip, so another 3d6 once per round via True Strike. It adds up.

 

[Tigris]

Both of those spells do more than grappler (hold person, for example, makes those follow-up punches into critical hits; blindness stops the opponent from misty step-ing away). However, in the grand scheme, you're not exactly wrong. I'm not trying to find a situation where this is a worthwhile tradeoff-- I don't think it is. I'm trying to find a situation where it is valuable, and minimize the levels of investment it would take. Because someone somewhere already is dipping 1-3 levels of cleric or druid with 10 levels of monk, so for them OP's realization has some kind of value.

Hold person also makes that the enemy cant attack back which I think is a big bonus! (And also others have advantage on attacking and even criting that enemy)

Yep.

Monk is one of the few where the 20th level class feature is actually attractive, making dips harder to justify... so while I think most gishes would for sure benefit, say, from taking a Fighter 2 dip for Action Surge and the other things, I find it a harder pill to swallow if comparing, e.g., a Monk 20 versus a Monk 18 / Fighter 2.

So if you're going to take non-Monk levels, then I would say, let's lean into them in a non-trivial way. So for example, 7 levels of Druid can get you CME, which synergizes well with having lots of attacks. A few build ideas with 7+ levels of Druid and 10+ levels of Monk could include:

1. Monk 13 / Druid 7. Simple, and gets you Deflect Energy at will to reduce damage from any type by 1d10 + 18 (assuming 20 Dex), which is pretty nice.
2. Monk 12 / Druid 8 if you want two Epic Boons and a 22 stat (not as nice as the two 24 stats a Monk 20 could have, but a good consolation prize I guess).
3. Monk 11 (the minimum to get to 1d10 damage) / Druid 7 / Fighter 2. With that one, you could get Weapon Mastery on a Nick weapon and do 3 attacks on the AA and 3 more on the BA, all of which would be at 1d10 assuming they're Monk weapons. On a nova round, you could cast CME as your action, then do 3 attacks with Action Surge and 3 more with your BA, and then keep doing 6 attacks on subsequent rounds too.

If the Monk side is the UA's Warrior of the Mystic Arts, then you can have a few extra spellcasting levels to bump the slot level of CME a tad higher, and also get access to stuff like Shield, Mirror Image, Haste (once you run out of slots to cast CME with) and other niceties.

I fully agree with what you say here, but the problem is a bit the build path. You need level 7 of druid to really get a big advantage out of it and in the levels towards there it might feel just weaker than pure monk by quite a bit.


Also consume minor elements in high level (as a level 4 spell) needs several attacks to make up for losing 2 attacks. Since a level 20 monk with +3 handbandages deals 1d12 + 7 + 3 damage per attack which is 16.5 which is over 60% higher than 2d8 (which is 9).

(In fact you need 3.66 attacks so at least 4) to get an advantage over just attacking 2 times more. (And this calculation does not include the fact that you have a +10% hit chance with monk keystone), so the level 2 fighter dip does help (and there only 1 level is useful because of nick).


Overall Monk has just one of the strongest capstones in the game:

• +4 Armor
• +2 to hit
• +2 to damage
• +2 to Initiative
• +2 on Wisdom saving throws
• +2 on Dex Saving throws
• +2 on Dex Skills
• +2 on Wis skills
• +2 on CR of your monk abilities
• + a bit more (depending on subclass and some more damage prevention with reaction)

And with wisdom and dexterity saving throws being common, and wisdom and dex skills being strong skills (although at this level skills matter not as much anymore)

 

[Silam]

I fully agree with what you say here, but the problem is a bit the build path. You need level 7 of druid to really get a big advantage out of it and in the levels towards there it might feel just weaker than pure monk by quite a bit.

Yeah, it's true that there could be awkward levels before this build comes into its own. One way to view it is that you are a support player, focusing on healing for a while.

How it goes could also depend a lot on the sequencing... if you multi-class late, then you're essentially a pure class for however many levels and you have the experience of playing that class (whether you start off with Druid or Monk). If you juggle the two classes from early on, it could still be interesting, but it might feel scattered for a while. A small number of Monk levels grants nice abilities, but very few focus points, which is a bummer (though they recharge easily, so depending on the typical adventuring day structure in your campaign, it may or may not work out well in the end).

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

Importantly, there is a change between 2014 and 2024.

In 2014:



In 2024:



So the 2024 rules are simplified, but also more flexible. An Attack Action is no longer required (as it would be in TWF, for example).

This opens up interesting combos, such as for an unarmed gish. Use an Action to cast a spell, and still do 3 attacks (with 10th level Flurry) as a BA!?

Where does the 1st of the three attacks come from? Assuming the other 2 come from a Bonus Action and a Ki Point for Flurry of Blows?

 

[Silam]

Where does the 1st of the three attacks come from? Assuming the other 2 come from a Bonus Action and a Ki Point for Flurry of Blows?

These are the 2024 Monk class features:

Level 1: Martial Arts​

Bonus Unarmed Strike. You can make an Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action.

Level 2: Monk's Focus​

Flurry of Blows. You can expend 1 Focus Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.

Level 10: Heightened Focus​

Flurry of Blows. You can expend 1 Focus Point to use Flurry of Blows and make three Unarmed Strikes with it instead of two.

 

[Zardnaar]

So I thought a bit about this:

• You need a class which has a really strong action (and optimally no useful bonus action).
• You are unfortunately limited to Wis and Dex classes, since Warlock might have been ideal with eldritch blast, since there a low level dip is enough (if you would be cha based).
• I think one of the best monk subclass (if using the old ones is fine) would be astral self, since they can max Wisdom (and in level 11 they get another martial arts die of damage). This would allow to use Druid or Cleric, of which most likely cleric is better since they dont have a class feature which is bonus action focused, but I am not sure might depend more on the spells. Chassis is similar for both, both get at level 7 wis to cantrip and have same subclass progression etc.
• Since in the beginning (when first going monk) you wont have many spell slots you first need to have strong cantrips
  • If you allow old spells, create bonfire could potentially do damage over several turns (or force opportunity attacks especially when 2 characters are around or when fighting an enemy having the size of more than 1 square.
  • Of course you can also get this (if allowed) from some origin or race. But also having thorn whip makes for a nice combo
  • A simpler alternative is just using a wisdom toll the dead, (and getting it not through multi classing)
• The problem with cantrips is that at least at level 20 with the monk capstone 2 of your basic attacks will be better, so for later level you need some good spells to make it worth.
• A simple alternative might also just be to use a subclass which has a strong alternative action, like warrior of the elements with the elemental blast, if you can catch 2 enemies in it, its better for sure than basic attacking.

Ok lets compare Valor Bard with Dance Bard:

• Level 3:
  • 1d6 vs 1d8 damage (with melee attack).
    • + 3 bonus attacks per day
      • An attack does in average 6.5 damage, so roughly 20 damage, so you need to do more than 20 basic attacks a day as a valor bard to put even, and this is not even counting that burst damage is better than sustained.
  • 16 armor for free vs 15 armor for 50g or 17 armor for 60 g (and using a shield)
  • Alternative use of inspiration (which grants a bit power in flexibility) vs alternatively use of bonus attack to give free movement to an ally (grab them with your attack and move them) instead of doing a bonus attack. (Which can mean 1 more action to attack for the ally not needing a dash etc.)
• Level 4:
  • 4 bonus attacks, so 26 damage so needing 26 attacks to go even with dance bard as valor bard
  • 17 armor for free going even with shield bard
• Level 5
  • 1d8 vs 1d8 damage drawing even.
    • With 2 short rests 3 times 4 bonus attacks on top of that
  • 17 armor vs potential 18 for 400 gold (still with shield)
• Level 6
  • Valor bard finally gets bonus attacks. 1 Bonus attack per cantrip cast.
    • So in a long adventure day (with not many short rests) they will get more bonus attacks
  • Dance bard can now also do a bonus attack as a reaction, and granting extra movement to allies as alternate use of bardic inspiration
    • This increases burst potential (2 bonus attacks + 1 full spell per turn),
  • Dance bard gets additionally the possibility to trade 1 bonus attack per combat to grant the party in average 1 more full turn. Which is equal to at least 2 bonus attacks.
  • So in a long adventure day with 2 short rests and 2 fights per short rest, and 2.5 turns per combat a valor bard gets 15 Bonus attacks, if they never cast a spell as an action.
    • Meanwhile the dance bard grants 6 X 1 complete action being worth 2+ attacks and still does 6 bonus attacks itself. This equals to 18+ bonus attacks.
    • If we assume that from the 10 leveled spells a bard has half are cast in combat as actions, then the number of bonus attacks from the valor bard goes even down to 10
  • Also since not only average damage counts, but in important combats also burst, we can also compare this:
    • Even if we assume that a cantrip is the best option (instead of a leveled spell), and we assume that the bonus to initiative did nothing we still have 2 bonus attacks vs 4 bonus attacks in the first 2 turns. Even if we consider the first 3 turns, its 4 bonus attacks (with the option of using a level 1 spell slot for a 5th one (and another for a 6th one)) vs 3.
• Level 7 no changes
• Level 8
  • 18 AC for free vs 18 AC with chance of gaining 19 AC (with shield) for 750 gold but gaining disadvantage on stealth
  • Dancer number of bonus attacks increase by 3. (While with more spell slots number of cantrips used goes down for valor bard until level 11).
• Level 9 no changes (just more spell slots so less cantrips)
• Level 10:
  • Dance Bard Damage increases to 1d10 overtaking valor bard
  • Initiative bonus increases to 5.5 or 27.5% so even more bonus turns through initiative bonus
    • For a party of 5 this means 1.37 bonus turns per combat
• Level 11:
  • Cantrips increase potency, so more often cantrips use instead of spell slots, so more bonus attacks again for Valor bard
  • Meanwhile bonus turns are now worth more like 3 extra attacks
• Level 12:
  • AC increases to 19 for Dance Bard (taking even with valor bard even if they use shield and have disadvantage on stealth)
• Level 13: Nothing just more spell slots (so low level ones can more freely be used to generate more bardic inspiration/bonus attacks if needed)
• Level 14:
  • Valor Bard gets big boost, they now get a bonus attack on each turn (instead of only when using a cantrip). So this means 15 bonus attacks in the long adventure day example.
    • While for the dance bard with 6 combats and 15 bardic inspiration, that is 6*1.37 * 2+ (more like 3) + 9 = 25.5+ Bonus attacks
  • Dance Bard also gets improved evasion and can share it with neighbours.
• Level 15:
  • Dance bard attack increases to 1d12 now 2 higher in average than Valor
  • Also Initiative Bonus increases to 32.5 so 1.6 extra turns in combat in average (for a party of 5)
• Level 16:
  • Dance bard armor increases to 20 overtaking valor bard in all cases
• Level 17: Nothing just more spell slots (so low level ones can more freely be used to generate more bardic inspiration/bonus attacks if needed)
• Level 18:
  • At least 2 bardic inspiration per fight, meaning that this is up to 6 more bonus attacks for dance bard (in 3x2 fight adventuring day)
• Level 19/20: Nothing just more spell slots

So in almost all levels the dance bard is just better than the valor bard, unless you have really long adventure days, (or give them higher bonuses with magical items than the dance bard... Because also as a dance bard you can also get armor increasing items (bracers of defense) and attack increasing ones with Wraps of Unarmed Power etc.)


And yes it may well be that it is better to "not be in melee" as Baumi said, but this is also true for the valor bard. They are still a full caster and similar to the dancer bard, they will often just be better out of melee, just that they lose most class features if they do, while the dance bard does not. (They even have 1 feature to keep them out of melee!)

Most of that is theory craft. Who cares about higher levels.

Why is Valor bards not using a Rapier? D8 damage. At will. Dance bards probably d4 dagger or cantrip and around 3 uses of the punch, 4 at level 4.

You also didn’t account for Valor bards dice either theyre stil buffing the party.

Damage lvl 3
1d8+3 or so vs 1d6 plus 3 uses of 1



Dance bard AC scales very slowly. Your AC 15 maybe 16 with multiple dump stats. Valor bards probably going to be 15-19 range fairly quickly.

Lvl 6. Dance bards thing is very situational. Your AC is 17 at best its probably 16. Valor bards AC is 19 maybe 18 if thry font have best AC yet.

Valor bards using true strike and two attacks maybe a 5.0 cantrip. Can use a bow.

You now get 4 uses of dance punch per short rest but its now competing with your other abilities. Valor bards got an extra dice of control damage and two attack.

Both have same spell list, same DCs potentially same spells.

Do if you ignore Valor bards dice, a few of your abilities potentially do nothing.

Valor bards not even goid outside their craft builds that come omonle lvl 10. At level 10 its s blow out of Valor bard takes CME of the Druid spell doing something similar.

Your abilites are also potentially worse to have that 16/16 starting stat. You neglected to mention that.

Free AC is essentially irrelevant after level 3 or so.

Valor bard can also use shillelagh and mix with true strike. Thats a d8/10/12 one handed weapon. Dual wielding at 10+. 3 attacks 2d8 or 3d8 per attack, main weapons a d10 or d12 off hand barely matters.

Level 14 3 attacks potentially 4 via feat (nick and 20 charisma., +2d8-5d8 damage per attack, 1d12 weapon, +5 damage on 4 of the attacks all dealing force or radiant damage. Plus 3d6 cantrip damage.

 

[Tigris]

Most of that is theory craft. Who cares about higher levels.

I explicitly showed how in low levels the dance bard is better...

Why is Valor bards not using a Rapier? D8 damage. At will. Dance bards probably d4 dagger or cantrip and around 3 uses of the punch, 4 at level 4.

I used a d8 damage dice for the valor bard... Thats why the damage is 1d6 vs 1d8 at level 3. First is always dance bard.....

You also didn’t account for Valor bards dice either theyre stil buffing the party.

Before level 6 I did, because its not included. After level 6 you are correct, you get 1 more use per combat (because initiative buff), but I also did underevaluate the initiative buff in general. Still thats absolutly true, my fault, but even if we say this is worth 1 extra attack (making 1 attack hit), the valor bard is still behind in number of attacks.

Damage lvl 3
1d8+3 or so vs 1d6 plus 3 uses of 1

Exactly what I wrote, just that I also calculated how ridiculously many attacks you need to make in order for the 1d8 to be better than 3 extra attacks.

Dance bard AC scales very slowly. Your AC 15 maybe 16 with multiple dump stats. Valor bards probably going to be 15-19 range fairly quickly.

Lvl 6. Dance bards thing is very situational. Your AC is 17 at best its probably 16. Valor bards AC is 19 maybe 18 if thry font have best AC yet.

I just in detail explained to you how the dance bard is (if played well, so going for 16 dex 17 cha of course) in practice better or equal in most levels. I showed you the exact AC you have if you build it well, there is no "probably" because I did show you exactly how it is.

Valor bards using true strike and two attacks maybe a 5.0 cantrip. Can use a bow.

And dance bards can use spells and dont need to go into melee unless they want to use the extra attack now. They can decide when they do it.

You now get 4 uses of dance punch per short rest but its now competing with your other abilities. Valor bards got an extra dice of control damage and two attack.

And this is, again as showed, only relevant when you have an absolutely unrealistic amount of combats per day. Even with 6 which is way more than the average party does, its not enough.

Both have same spell list, same DCs potentially same spells.

Do if you ignore Valor bards dice, a few of your abilities potentially do nothing.

I did not ignore valor bards dice, because the dance bard still gives bardic inspiration most of the time, only the initiative ones are not there. I just did not talk about the things which are the same. Thats the nice thing about dance bards, you get the extra attack or movement for free when using bardic inspiration!

Valor bards not even goid outside their craft builds that come omonle lvl 10. At level 10 its s blow out of Valor bard takes CME of the Druid spell doing something similar.

And by doing that spell you lose 1 turn of attacks out of the 2.5 you have in average in a combat. And the other bard can also use a spell to do something useful with the spell slot.

Your abilites are also potentially worse to have that 16/16 starting stat. You neglected to mention that.

Valor bard also needs 17/16 starting stats else they have -1 to hit. Unless they use shielagh, which bards dont regularily have, so you need to spend other ressources (feats etc.) to get this. Feats can also be spend by dance bard to get good things.

Free AC is essentially irrelevant after level 3 or so.

Unless you need to go to a place where armor and weapons are not allowed, or they are stolen or you are traveling in the wildneress without a shop to buy, or you need to use gold for the adventure you are playing in order to restore a tavern etc.

Valor bard can also use shillelagh and mix with true strike. Thats a d8/10/12 one handed weapon. Dual wielding at 10+. 3 attacks 2d8 or 3d8 per attack, main weapons a d10 or d12 off hand barely matters.

Level 14 3 attacks potentially 4 via feat (nick and 20 charisma., +2d8-5d8 damage per attack, 1d12 weapon, +5 damage on 4 of the attacks all dealing force or radiant damage. Plus 3d6 cantrip damage.

So if you invest lots of ressources (feat for shilelagh, cantrip slot for true strike, bonus action for shilelagh, 1 turn of attacks out of 2.5, concentration, 1 of your sectrets and a level 4+ spell slot), you can do a bit more burst damage than the dance bard by being a normal full caster and just getting extra attacks on the side?




This is the problem, people dont calculate things but only do "probably" and thats why they are wrong.


People see "oh I can do as many extra attacks as I want" but completly forget that you only get that (at low levels) when doing a cantrip which is not what you do always.


Yes you can do some tricks with magical items multiclassing etc. but you can also do this with dance bard and the dance bard is not forced 1 specific way. They can do whatever they want and just get the bonus on the side. And if you play a pure bard, than Dance bard is, unless having really many fights or using bad stats, almost strictly better than valor bard, as shown and this with pretty much no limitations on what items to wear, how much gold you get and what you do in combat and what spells etc. you take.

 

[Zardnaar]

I explicitly showed how in low levels the dance bard is better...

I used a d8 damage dice for the valor bard... Thats why the damage is 1d6 vs 1d8 at level 3. First is always dance bard.....

Before level 6 I did, because its not included. After level 6 you are correct, you get 1 more use per combat (because initiative buff), but I also did underevaluate the initiative buff in general. Still thats absolutly true, my fault, but even if we say this is worth 1 extra attack (making 1 attack hit), the valor bard is still behind in number of attacks.

Exactly what I wrote, just that I also calculated how ridiculously many attacks you need to make in order for the 1d8 to be better than 3 extra attacks.

I just in detail explained to you how the dance bard is (if played well, so going for 16 dex 17 cha of course) in practice better or equal in most levels. I showed you the exact AC you have if you build it well, there is no "probably" because I did show you exactly how it is.

And dance bards can use spells and dont need to go into melee unless they want to use the extra attack now. They can decide when they do it.

And this is, again as showed, only relevant when you have an absolutely unrealistic amount of combats per day. Even with 6 which is way more than the average party does, its not enough.

I did not ignore valor bards dice, because the dance bard still gives bardic inspiration most of the time, only the initiative ones are not there. I just did not talk about the things which are the same. Thats the nice thing about dance bards, you get the extra attack or movement for free when using bardic inspiration!

And by doing that spell you lose 1 turn of attacks out of the 2.5 you have in average in a combat. And the other bard can also use a spell to do something useful with the spell slot.

Valor bard also needs 17/16 starting stats else they have -1 to hit. Unless they use shielagh, which bards dont regularily have, so you need to spend other ressources (feats etc.) to get this. Feats can also be spend by dance bard to get good things.

Unless you need to go to a place where armor and weapons are not allowed, or they are stolen etc.


So if you invest lots of ressources (feat for shilelagh, cantrip slot for true strike, bonus action for shilelagh, 1 turn of attacks out of 2.5, concentration, 1 of your sectrets and a level 4+ spell slot), you can do a bit more burst damage than the dance bard by being a normal full caster and just getting extra attacks on the side?




This is the problem, people dont calculate things but only do "probably" and thats why they are wrong.


People see "oh I can do as many extra attacks as I want" but completly forget that you only get that (at low levels) when doing a cantrip which is not what you do always.


Yes you can do some tricks with magical items multiclassing etc. but you can also do this with dance bard and the dance bard is not forced 1 specific way. They can do whatever they want and just get the bonus on the side. And if you play a pure bard, than Dance bard is, unless having really many fights or using bad stats, almost strictly better than valor bard, as shown and this with pretty much no limitations on what items to wear, how much gold you get and what you do in combat and what spells etc. you take.

Youre drastically under rating valor bard ac. Its going to be +17-19 range.

CME can be precast. Yes im using shillagh. Also font of moonlight at 7. Can also last several fights. I'm taking warcaster to keep it going.

. Your also not accounting for dance bard having multiple dump stats to get the 16/16.

Your AC hits 17 at 4th. You dont get a d8 weapon. Valor bard dice doesnt do much fir valor bard but its very relevant for every one else.

Theres no origin feat for dance bard that drastically changes anything either. So yeah I'll take magic initiate druid cheers. 5.0 origin or human.

Its not unusual to use everything ive laid out here and im not even considering 5.0 stuff.

So dance bard is better if valor bard players an idiot an the DMs screwing them over. . In contrived situations where spells last 10 minutes last 1 round and a fight is 2.5 round.

Valor bards not even that good outside high level theory craft builds. Still better than dance bards in most plausible situations (DMs not screwing you over on money and stealing your equipment constantly)
Your AC tops out at 18 as well at 8. 19 for Valor bards and +1 shields are uncommon.

Played one tonight tbh. CME concentration wasn't broken so its on round 1 next combat.
Weapon

Cacophony - bg3.wiki

Cacophony is a rare +1 Quarterstaff that grants the wielder the Thunderous Smite spell.

bg3.wiki

ACs 22, 21 is still reasonable at 10th if you think the item load puts unreasonable.

Wishlist would be cloak of displacement, vicious weapon or very rare staff,