D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[CreamCloud0]

Once he does that, though, he's no longer acting on whim and/or driven by his emotions, two major hallmarks of CE.

also possibly the least interesting interpretation of what defines Chaotic.

 

[CreamCloud0]

A Lawful person feels good when they follow the rules and feels bad when they break the rules, while a Chaotic person enjoys breaking rules and doesn't like following rules or patterns.

i like the bulk of your post but i'd disagree on this one point, being lawful/chaotic doesn't make those of that alignment feel good as such, more that those people value the principles of it and think the methods of those alignments are the most effective way of getting things accomplished.

 

[DammitVictor]

I blame the current climate, but I can't imagine a smart chaotic evil.

Can somebody explain how your GM would pull it off?

Remember that Evil people are still people; they have emotional needs and personal attachments. This is even more important than remembering they have rational self-interests, because Chaotic Evil is often paired with a weaker sense of self-preservation. #NoLivesMatter

There are two kinds of people in the world: people you do Evil things for and people you do Evil things to. Not every Evil person is good at telling them apart all the time, but most of them try. The people who protect you from getting your throat cut in your sleep are both very important, and also just as capable of cutting your throat in your sleep as the people they're protecting you from. You take care of those people.

You have Neutral friends. Maybe even Good friends, as long as they're not Paladins or Exalted. They make excuses for your behavior because they like you, and because they know you have their back. You always have their backs. You might not give a damn about orphans or princesses or whatever stupid thing they're risking their lives for today... but you care about them and you want them to get what they want. You're probably pretty careful about how awful you are when they're watching, but some of the awful things you do behind their back are for their own good. Lawful and Good adventurers still get in trouble with the law; when they law doesn't care about them, they're grateful you don't care about the law. And that you do care about them.

Chaotic Evil enjoys hurting people; hurting people feels good. Hurting people feels just as good when they're bad people, and usually even better. Hurting people is even better when someone else thanks you for it.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

Others can differ over nearly every point. Perhaps they pride themselves in truly earning the loyalty of their underlings, because they see that as "owning" the body, mind, or even soul of such loyal soldiers, or because they have mastered arts of turning "good" people into fanatic loyalists.

But, that's the point I was making. They pride themselves on earning the personal loyalty of their underlings. It's all about ownership and power. But, they couldn't care less about the underlings being loyal to a cause. It's all about cult of personality. The cause is just an excuse. They are fanatically following ME, not some cause. I'm the most important part of the equation.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But, that's the point I was making. They pride themselves on earning the personal loyalty of their underlings. It's all about ownership and power. But, they couldn't care less about the underlings being loyal to a cause. It's all about cult of personality. The cause is just an excuse. They are fanatically following ME, not some cause. I'm the most important part of the equation.

You...did pick out the one and only example I gave that could be analyzed that way...

 

[cranberry]

Once he does that, though, he's no longer acting on whim and/or driven by his emotions, two major hallmarks of CE.

It's essentially a matter of self preservation which all beings have regardless of alignment.

And if CE beings didn't have a sense of self preservation, the alignment would self-select itself out of existence.

What is your source for the definitions of alignment?

 

[Seramus]

I always enjoyed Belkar, from Order of the Stick, as a Chaotic Evil character. He definitely doesn't count as "smart", so he's disqualified from the discussion, but I like the concept of "Your Best Friend" - someone who is willing to do anything for their friends. They have a select few people they care about more than anyone else, and don't even consider the feelings of anyone outside that group. They don't act too disruptively, because it would be a hassle for them and the consequences would negatively impact their friends. But if you ever trouble their friends, or their friends give them permission to cut loose? They will GLEEFULLY hurt you.

Frankly, @DammitVictor's post is a thing of beauty, and perfectly captures Belkar.

 

[Maxperson]

It's essentially a matter of self preservation which all beings have regardless of alignment.

And if CE beings didn't have a sense of self preservation, the alignment would self-select itself out of existence.

What is your source for the definitions of alignment?

They do have self-preservation. If you know someone or multiple people are stronger and will kill you, you probably don't do it. I say probably, because they are also often ruled by emotion and that will sometimes translate into not playing it safe or not caring.

They are just typically not going to plan things out or be reasonable to the point that a lot of people here are suggesting. There's a reason that alignment is given to things like demons and red dragons.

 

[Maxperson]

also possibly the least interesting interpretation of what defines Chaotic.

That may be, but it is what the game has written. You're free to re-define it for your game and use it differently.

 

[Maxperson]

I just see this as a needlessly stupefying take on Chaos.

Chaos does not need to be so utterly enslaved to whim that it cannot organize; it just needs that organization to be one that always justifies its legitimacy to the individual. So you can have an organized group of freedom fighters (aka terrorists, as @Steampunkette noted--which one you see as "evil" vs "desperate" is a matter of perspective), and they can be chaotic without that conflicting with them acting as a group. It's just a group where you cannot rely on hierarchy to justify your actions. You always have to persuade, and if someone wants to leave, then they just leave, there is nothing holding the group together except mutual consent.

Yes, SOME Chaotic Evil--indeed, possibly most Chaotic Evil--beings will be exactly as you describe. But being absolutely RULED by your whims and driven EXCLUSIVELY by your emotions? That's literally one of the characteristic traits of being a stupid person. Allowing foolish and dangerous restrictions to not only hobble you, but outright eliminate the possibility of victory. That's what that is. And it's just as stupid when it's a Lawful person pixelb!%@#ing about needless details (it's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me; at tea time everyone agrees), or a Good person getting so hung up on personal moral purity that they allow horrible harm to come to others, or whatever else.

There should be some Chaotic Evil people who are not absolute slaves to whim and emotion, but instead express Chaos in any of the myriad other ways that that idea can exist--and who can, therefore, potentially be frighteningly smart, dangerously good at achieving their goals.

Very little is 100% and outside of something like a demon and I'm not saying it should be, but "smart" play wouldn't have a PC be ruled by whim or emotion even as high 25% of the time. And if your CE PC is avoiding being CE 75%+ of the time, he isn't CE. He's LE or NE with a small streak of C somewhere in there.