D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[CreamCloud0]

Slightly off topic, but I simply cannot play Evil characters. I cannot even play Neutral. And not even just in TTRPGs, but also in solo play video games. I do not understand the desire to do so.

tangentially, it's amazing how 'evil' it can turn out your groups actions have been when you remove the 'we're the hero protagonists' goggles.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Very little is 100% and outside of something like a demon and I'm not saying it should be, but "smart" play wouldn't have a PC be ruled by whim or emotion even as high 25% of the time. And if your CE PC is avoiding being CE 75%+ of the time, he isn't CE. He's LE or NE with a small streak of C somewhere in there.

And I still reject the idea that CE has to be bound to such a behavior type that means it is necessarily the Inherently Stupid Alignment.

 

[bsss]

And I still reject the idea that CE has to be bound to such a behavior type that means it is necessarily the Inherently Stupid Alignment.

To be fair to the shallow interpretation, I think it assumes all Chaotic characters would be Inherently Stupid, so it's not just CE.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

Freedom fighters are usually not CE. Freedom fighters are moving towards a goal. Want to overthrow the tyranny so that a better place can be had. Usually have some sort of code(however twisted) that they follow.

Nope.

Freedom fighters and revolutionaries are very often driven by cults of personality. There are all sorts of real world examples where the revolution was less about "overthrowing tyranny" and MUCH more about installing themselves in positions of power over the very rightfully, democratically, elected government.

But, yeah, we're not going to agree here, @Maxperson. Your definitions of alignment are just too idiosyncratic for this conversation to be able to move forward.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

As a player, I find it difficult too (antihero not so much), but as a DM playing the villains ... I can get cruel.

The more I think about it, the more bizarre hypocrisy it feels like.

I think it's more because as a DM, you're not quite as invested in any single character. You're playing that evil character as a foil to the players. And, as a DM, you are most likely going to lose. The villains in most D&D campaigns don't win.

As a player though, your "villain" character is supposed to win. And that can be really... icky. D&D is all about heroic fantasy where evil always loses. Pretty much every published scenario, right from day 1, presumes that the PC's are going to be heroes and they are going to win. The idea that your PC's go into (to pick a REALLY old example) Slave Pits of the Undercity, take over the operation and begin being slavers themselves is not supported at all by anything in the game. There is zero presumption that the PC's are going to join forces with the slavers. And, frankly, that's something that would be very uncomfortable to play out at most tables, IMO.

 

[Maxperson]

Nah. There are plenty of people in the real world I would classify as CE even though we don't have gods.

You misread what I said. I didn't say that ONLY those people were CE. I said that they were the only ones listed in the post I quoted. Big difference there.

Your strict reading of a single sentence as if it's the only way that anyone anywhere can use the alignment system as inspiration on how to run a character is pretty myopic. Are they sometimes going to do things on a whim? Sure. That doesn't mean they're insane.

I think they are insane. CE and CN are two alignments of insanity. Look at the prime examples of CE. Thanos. The Joker. The Kurgan. Joe Pesci's character in Good Fellas. Belkar. All of them are off their freaking rockers in some way or other. You don't end up CE unless your mind is warped. Same with CN.

 

[Maxperson]

And I still reject the idea that CE has to be bound to such a behavior type that means it is necessarily the Inherently Stupid Alignment.

That's fine. I'm just going by how the game puts it. You're free to run it any way you like and reject whatever parts of the game you want to.

I just peeked at 4e's CE alignment and it's even worse when it comes to CE being an alignment of insanity. So every edition treats as an insane and reckless alignment.

"Chaotic evil characters have a complete disregard for others. Each believes he or she is the only being that matters and kills, steals, and betrays others to gain power. Their word is meaningless and their actions destructive. Their worldviews can be so warped that they destroy anything and anyone that doesn’t directly contribute to their interests."

 

[Maxperson]

Nope.

Freedom fighters and revolutionaries are very often driven by cults of personality. There are all sorts of real world examples where the revolution was less about "overthrowing tyranny" and MUCH more about installing themselves in positions of power over the very rightfully, democratically, elected government.

So LE. Replacing one evil system with your evil system is still.........................LE.

 

[Maxperson]

To be fair to the shallow interpretation, I think it assumes all Chaotic characters would be Inherently Stupid, so it's not just CE.

Not CG. CN and CE absolutely. The game has treated the CG alignment much more fairly.