D&D 5E (2024) How useful/interesting is something like this?

How useful/interesting is this?

  • Very

    Votes: 1 3.6%
  • Somewhat

    Votes: 6 21.4%
  • Not at All

    Votes: 11 39.3%
  • What is this?

    Votes: 10 35.7%

Completely useless tbh. Marginally useful comparing striker to striker


5.5 meta is different. Unlike 5.0 I dont rate damage that high tbh.

Metrics I value can't really be crunched mathematically.

I don't think ECMO3 and myself disagree to much over certain things.

Barbarians very front loaded one trick pony though. Scale poorly except Zealon and Berzerker.

Fighters always good, paladin almost as good let down early levels. Paladins better higher levels. Depending on build.

Rogues behind on damage. How good everything else is depends.
 

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Fighters always good
You know, Battlemaster Fighter in 2014 used to be one of my favorite classes because they did really well level 3-10 and could continue scaling.

However, based on 2024, they seem mostly below Barbarian and Paladin. Battlemaster probably holds up the best through most of that range, but not quite as good.

At least with respect to combat.
 

As someone interested in game mechanics and theory, it's nice to have data to support or debunk assertations about what is or what is not bad/mediocre/good/busted in games- it helps to set expectations for me as a DM and knows what I should strive for, and where I should draw the line as a player.

And make no mistake, establishing a real baseline is a good thing, on both sides of the "screen". I remember sitting down in a Pathfinder 1e game with a new DM, and I played a Rogue. In the first combat, he immediately started calling foul, saying my damage was way too high.

Now at the time, I laughed (and I really shouldn't have, mea culpa), because Pathfinder 1e Rogues had, at least in online discourse, a pretty shabby reputation as damage dealers. But again, expectations.

The DMG doesn't have a chart saying "if character X deals Y damage in a round of combat" what to do, if anything. You just have to play it by ear. The CR system is useless to a lot of people because it's a vague number based on assumptions that may or may not be true. 2014 5e has long had DM's saying that they need to run Deadly+ encounters for their groups to face any serious challenge, but then immediately discard the testimony of other DM's who claim to see TPK's all the time. Because different groups play differently, either because of player skill, choices made, party composition, and the like.

For example, in 2014, the "-5 to hit/+10 damage" Feats were seen as busted by many DM's, but many players equally found them necessary to actually maintain good damage against enemies as they rose in level. This reminded me exactly of Power Attack discussions in 3.x and Pathfinder 1e, where people would present charts saying "if AC is x, then use y Power Attack for best results." But you don't always know what the AC of an opponent is. Maybe your DM tells you, maybe they don't. Maybe you have savvy players who pay attention and can sus out the proper AC. Maybe you don't.

It's not unbelievable for a player to decide to gamble on big damage, and due to unlucky rolls and a high AC to simply whiff on their turn for no effect, and decide their Feat is "useless". It's also just as likely you find yourself in a party where you can gain easy advantage and have things like Bless or Inspiration dice, or Battlemaster maneuvers and whathaveyou to mitigate the penalties, resulting in very skewed data.

Effectively speaking, baseline data is useful, but how to decide upon a baseline is the problem. Your data is only good for a hypothetical group facing enemies you choose, in a white room.

And as some in this thread have pointed out, there are other factors in a real game that determine effectiveness. The other two pillars are part of a game, for one, and it doesn't matter that you can pull 100 dpr under optimal conditions if you can't get to the battle, or your group routinely bypasses combats.

But more importantly, it doesn't take much to throw any numbers off. Difficult terrain, hazards, traps, enemies using control/debuff effects, and suddenly everything is out of alignment.

While I appreciate people who are willing to compute and calculate data, a few things are necessary for that data to mean anything.

Most importantly, please share your methodology. What circumstances are being assumed? How do you presume characters will be built? What are they doing on their turn?

For example, when calculating damage per round/combat, if you assume a Barbarian is always raging, can always reach enemies, and always using a greataxe, always using Reckless Attack, and always improving their Strength at every opportunity, and using point buy or dice rolling to get their starting scores, and listing what relevant species and Feats they have, then please share, so that we know what to expect if any of these aren't true- this way, someone who sees that your assumptions are in no way reflective of their group can discount them.

For example, many Rogues use two weapon fighting to maximize their chances to deliver a Sneak Attack (and in 5.5, probably with one weapon having Vex). However, it's quite possible to Sneak Attack at range, which is typically safer. If your methodology assumes dual wielding, a DM with a ranged Rogue knows that your data isn't very useful to them.

Alternately, a third DM, whose play group likes Rogues with Warlock dips to use Devil's Sight and attacking from areas heavily obscured by a lack of lighting, is going to have very different results at their table.

Similarly, when calculating defenses, what AC do you presume? Do you presume certain armors? Shields? Reaction defenses? Damage resistances?

In the case of the Rogue, they can resist the damage of just about anything with their reaction, but that only works once per round. So how many attacks are we assuming are aimed at the Rogue each turn?

Are Monks constantly using their bonus action Dodge, or are they using their Flurry?

Now I admit and understand that no one can take all of these factors into account, and there will always be some variable that you cannot take into account in a complex game like a TTRPG, designed to let you make wildly different characters. But if we can at least see what sort of game you're assuming is being played, then we can actually begin to see if we can derive value from your work, and your valuable time.
 

I agree with most everything you say here so no comment on most
While I appreciate people who are willing to compute and calculate data, a few things are necessary for that data to mean anything.

Most importantly, please share your methodology. What circumstances are being assumed? How do you presume characters will be built? What are they doing on their turn?
Of course, I've been adamant that comes with the finalized product. But if I've got something pretty locked in I don't mind to go ahead and share earlier.

For example, when calculating damage per round/combat, if you assume a Barbarian is always raging, can always reach enemies, and always using a greataxe, always using Reckless Attack, and always improving their Strength at every opportunity, and using point buy or dice rolling to get their starting scores, and listing what relevant species and Feats they have, then please share, so that we know what to expect if any of these aren't true- this way, someone who sees that your assumptions are in no way reflective of their group can discount them.
Here's a list of things you asked about that I'm fairly certain won't change.
  • Weapons are dependent on the specific build. I probably need to tag that in the specific label. Generally GWM = Greatsword or Maul. PAM = Pike, though i may add a glaive.
  • I start most at 17,14,14 which matches my standard array games. The difference in 14 and 16 con when handled across the board is fairly negligible. Monk was an exception where I did choose to use 17,16,14.
  • I assume always on rage because they can cover at least 4 encounters (assuming 1 short rest) with it at level 5.
  • DPR is the single target damage when they are attacking in melee (unless specifically a bow build). Ranged damage would be handled separately. Either an additional chart or more likely by giving them a tag to indicate it. Mobility would be handled similar to ranged damage. Ultimate ideal is to be able to filter for specific tags and have the graph redraw itself just showing those, and possibly a few reference points.
  • Reckless attack is entry dependent, so far it's either always on or always off, though it doesn't have to be.
  • I'm not taking into account any species bonuses. If I ever do they will be included in the entry text.
  • If a feat was included in the calculation i list it.

For example, many Rogues use two weapon fighting to maximize their chances to deliver a Sneak Attack (and in 5.5, probably with one weapon having Vex). However, it's quite possible to Sneak Attack at range, which is typically safer. If your methodology assumes dual wielding, a DM with a ranged Rogue knows that your data isn't very useful to them.
Right, that tag was incomplete. I've updated that Rogue to a true strike entry.

But again - this is a non finalized product - you are asking for a level of detail and completeness that just isn't there yet.

Alternately, a third DM, whose play group likes Rogues with Warlock dips to use Devil's Sight and attacking from areas heavily obscured by a lack of lighting, is going to have very different results at their table.
The only results I'm computing are damage and ehp, not complete in game results at the table. I expect such values to be very directional (for martials), but as we all know there are other factors as well. If I include an entry for such a character i will estimate the combo's impact on damage and ehp and include that along with how the estimate was achieved.

Similarly, when calculating defenses, what AC do you presume? Do you presume certain armors? Shields? Reaction defenses? Damage resistances?
  • AC = best non-magical armor for type class can use without issue
  • Shields if they are using a 1 handed weapon and they have proficiency
  • I do try to estimate reaction defenses. Uncanny dodge and deflect attacks are included. I'm working on methodolgy for shield spell, though that won't matter for most subclasses absent species and origin feat as most don't get reaction defensive spells or even have spellcasting.
In the case of the Rogue, they can resist the damage of just about anything with their reaction, but that only works once per round. So how many attacks are we assuming are aimed at the Rogue each turn?
The same as everyone else. Ehp is a reflection of, when you are being attacked how much damage can you take.

I think too many people want to incorporate liklihood of being targeted into it, but that's just not what it represents. (Especially since usually if you have a low liklihood of being targeted it means you just increased your allies chance of being targeted, which would make you look good individually but really shafts your team).

Are Monks constantly using their bonus action Dodge, or are they using their Flurry?
In my single monk entry I listed grappler and flurry. That means I had the monk dump as much ki as they could with 1 short rest into flurry. I may run another monk later where they use all ki on dodge.

Now I admit and understand that no one can take all of these factors into account, and there will always be some variable that you cannot take into account in a complex game like a TTRPG, designed to let you make wildly different characters. But if we can at least see what sort of game you're assuming is being played, then we can actually begin to see if we can derive value from your work, and your valuable time.
Sure. My only issue is, i asked if something LIKE this would be useful. One doesn't actually need all these nitty gritty details to answer that. One does need those details to know if my exact implementation is useful to them, but that wasn't really what I was asking and it's not even completed to be able to share all those details yet.
 
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You know, Battlemaster Fighter in 2014 used to be one of my favorite classes because they did really well level 3-10 and could continue scaling.

However, based on 2024, they seem mostly below Barbarian and Paladin. Battlemaster probably holds up the best through most of that range, but not quite as good.

At least with respect to combat.

Still good at lvl 3, fighters start to beat barbarians lvl 6/7 imho.

Paladins are weaker than both tier 1, 6+ very good. Alot better with shadowmoor feat and similar custom feat in home game.

Lvl 11+ martials Paladins and fighters are good imho. Monks are better than internet assumes (our ones bailed out the barbarian) and I've seen 3 in action.

One player she read my players guide and picked shadow Monks. Big bads are the shades.

One area is under a shadow canopy spell from 3E. Oops.

Ive seen a few to many barbarians tale to much damage and get critted via reckless attack. 5.5 monsters hit a bit to hard imho to feed crits to them.

Champion even at 3 is better than internet assumes imho. Level 10/11 all the fighters are close to each other in power.

EK switches on lvl 7 and kinda wants 5.0 cantrips.
 

fighters start to beat barbarians lvl 6/7 imho.
I'm not seeing that at all (combat pillar). How do you figure?

Paladins are weaker than both tier 1, 6+ very good.
I think the best Paladin subclasses outdo the Best Fighter ones in tier 1.

Lvl 11+ martials Paladins and fighters are good imho. Monks are better than internet assumes (our ones bailed out the barbarian) and I've seen 3 in action.
It's been a long time since I looked at level 11+. Paladins, Monks and Fighters do get good scaling around then. Barbarians not so much, but Barbarians were so far ahead, i'm not sure if they actually are falling behind moreso than the others just catching up. I'll have to reevaluate at some point.

One player she reas my players guide and picked shadow Monks. Big bads are the shades.

One area is under a shadow canopy spell from 3E. Oops.
Yea, I'm very happy with 2024 monks. I think in tier 4 they can lose out a bit, but outside that, they are great.
 
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I'm not seeing that at all (combat pillar). How do you figure?


I think the best Paladin subclasses outdo the Best Fighter ones in tier 1.


It's been a long time since I looked at level 11+. Paladins, Monks and Fighters do get good scaling around then. Barbarians not so much, but Barbarians were so far ahead, i'm not sure if they actually are falling behind moreso than the others just catching up. I'll have to reevaluate at some point.


Yea, I'm very happy with 2024 monks. I think in tier 4 they can lose out a bit, but outside that, they are great.

Fighters get a feat at 6 and another ability at 7.

Barbarian damage scales poorly. Zealot and Berzerkers kinda keep up tier 2. Lvl 8 fighters looking at 3 feats and 20 str/dex vs Barbarian 20/1 feat or 19 strength and 2 feats.

Barbarian doesnt get indomitable and cant realky spare the feats to take mageslayer and/or resilient wisdom.

Ive seen lvl 12 characters flunked DC 12 wisdom saves from CR 2 mooks and get paralyzed. Ive seen Barbarians get hit 3 times in a round get critted once or twice and drop.

Alot of firce/radiantpoison damage going around low AC plus advantage to hit and unreliable resistances now....

Felt mean on one of them. New player "I'm a monster". Wisdom save easily flunked it removed from combat.

CR2 goblin hexers.....
 

Fighters get a feat at 6 and another ability at 7.
Naming a feature doesn't explain how that makes the Fighter better.

Barbarian damage scales poorly. Zealot and Berzerkers kinda keep up tier 2. Lvl 8 fighters looking at 3 feats and 20 str/dex vs Barbarian 20/1 feat or 19 strength and 2 feats.
Thus the question of whether he was far enough ahead at level 5 to still be competitive at 11 even without additional damage.

Initial calcs look like no for zealot (though not terribly for behind), maybe for frenzy barb due to possibility of reaction attack.

Barbarian doesnt get indomitable and cant realky spare the feats to take mageslayer and/or resilient wisdom.
I would most likely pick up mage slayer at 8th. Both zealot and beserker get good save boosting features at level 6.

Ive seen lvl 12 characters flunked DC 12 wisdom saves from CR 2 mooks and get paralyzed. Ive seen Barbarians get hit 3 times in a round get critted once or twice and drop.

Alot of firce/radiantpoison damage going around low AC plus advantage to hit and unreliable resistances now....

Felt mean on one of them. New player "I'm a monster". Wisdom save easily flunked it removed from combat.

CR2 goblin hexers.....
Yes. But class isn't the only way to solve for saves, species and feats and subclass can do alot of work.
 

Naming a feature doesn't explain how that makes the Fighter better.


Thus the question of whether he was far enough ahead at level 5 to still be competitive at 11 even without additional damage.

Initial calcs look like no for zealot (though not terribly for behind), maybe for frenzy barb due to possibility of reaction attack.


I would most likely pick up mage slayer at 8th. Both zealot and beserker get good save boosting features at level 6.


Yes. But class isn't the only way to solve for saves, species and feats and subclass can do alot of work.

Berzerkers only good for fear.
Note I think both are the best. Fighters also getting their skill boost thing etc.

Barbarians overall don't keep up. Also I dont rate damage as high as 5.0.

Saw hobgoblins get luck today and chew apart the PCs.

I've noticed that happens a lot at all levels.

Fighter subclasses phb theyre all fairly close to each other.

Toems kinda weak, world trees bit unreliable and needs party synergy. Situationally better.

Zealots best all around imho.

I also rate champion higher tgan the internet. Ive seen the with alert feat, swap initiative with other PCs for a nice set up. High impact high synergy. Not as good at danage but I woukd rather do that than hit harder.

Also seen champion do tgat set up paralysis and double their damage via free crits.

Also feeds into not getting hit. Swap with any spellcaster to help you out they help you out less damage taken more damage inflicted .

Its more tactical and sitting behind DM screen im thinking "if they did this vs that.....".

Barbarians have impressed me lvl 3-5. Theres more advantage going around 8n 5.5 so reckless attack is comparatively worse.
 

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