Let's Talk About Defining Player Characters

[pemerton]

I'm pretty flexible, in that I enjoy multiple approaches; sometimes what I do like in one system is something I don't enjoy in another! Some games feel better with tight constraints, others work better with a looser approach.

What I enjoy most is an approach relatively underserved; a game with fairly detailed and granular character creation at the start, but with a loose, unfixed, "roguelike" approach to character growth after play starts.

I wish I did! Most games with rogue-like progression I've found are OSR/NSR games with simple resolution engines (I'm thinking games like Cairn and Knave here). Most crunchy games feature increasing player-facing decision choices all throughout the leveling process (which makes sense, considering those games are generally focused on empowering player choices).

I'm not really strong on the concept of "roguelike" progression; but here are the Advancement rules from Knave:

Whenever a PC accumulates 1000 XP, they gain a level. As a guideline, PCs receive 50 XP for low-risk accomplish-ments, 100 XP for moderate-risk accomplishments, and 200 XP for high-risk accomplishments. The referee should freely notify the PCs of how much XP different objectives are worth when asked. . . .

When a PC gains a level, they roll a number of d8s equal to their new level to find their new HP maximum. If the result is less than their previous maximum, their maximum HP increases by 1. They also raise the defense and bonus scores of 3 different abilities of their choice by 1 point. Abilities may never be raised higher than 20/+10.​

There's also this "Designer's Note":

You can also raise abilities randomly if you want. My preferred method is to roll a d20 for each ability, in any order, raising that ability by 1 if the roll is less than that ability's defense. Keep cycling through the abilities, stopping when three abilities have advanced, and skipping any abilities that have maxed out. In this method, natural talents will tend to advance faster than weaknesses, which makes PCs more varied and specialized.​

Burning Wheel is a "crunchy" game that features detailed and granular PC build at the start, but that has unfixed advancement. It doesn't use levels, but something a bit closer to RQ/BRP-style advancement. It doesn't have the feature that "natural talents will tend to advance faster than weaknesses", but PCs still tend to be pretty varied (at least in my experience).

 

[A_Carrington]

I prefer point buy, and advancement as an option should the players desire it, but not as the default.

 

[Tonguez]

I like Narrative Tag systems be it FATE or City of Mist

My favourite system is FATE Accelerated where even PC Attributes have been redefined as narrative approaches that defines how a character acts rather than what they can do.

Class Archetypes are important and while many struggle with the undefined nature of Fate, Archetype Aspects and stunts can be used to emulate Classes or race or heritage

 

[Reynard]

and advancement as an option should the players desire it, but not as the default.

Can you say more about this? Have you played with groups who are actively not interested in advancement? If so, what games and genres? And do you mean NO advancement, or only diegetic advancement?

 

[A_Carrington]

For example, in my current game, heroes don't gain points during play, at least not for now, we can always change our minds later. However I added ways of acquiring new capabilities during play, such as from consumable items. These are usually horizontal upgrades, that is, they give you access to more versatility, rather than improving what you can already do. They're consumable and temporary, so they both give the players a natural incentive to seek out treasure, and something meaningful to spend it on (currency is also something I added to the game, specifically so I could give the players an objective, reliable method of getting access to cool stuff that doesn't require permanent character sheet upgrades).

 

[Vael]

First and foremost, any system that is complex enough I feel I need an app or software to do it is a problem. I've done Supers RPGs where I had to download a spreadsheet to make my character and I nearly gave up right there. As a result, most point buy systems I consider too much for me, unless it's very light and narrative. So I have a general preference towards classes, but it's not a hard rule. I like FATE, but it's also very light in that manner.

 

[A_Carrington]

Classes do not reduce complexity, lol. They're mostly good at adding a bunch of options to a character that the player wasn't interested in and doesn't care about, so they represent wasted resources they could have spent elsewhere, while also making the character clunkier to play for no benefit.

Like in d&d, it's way more difficult than it needs to be to play a strongly themed wizard. Suppose I want to play a frost mage in core 3.5 for example. How many cold themed spells even are there in the book? And am I screwing myself out of being relevant to the game by picking them?

Seriously, here are all of the leveled wizard cold themed spells in PHB 1.

1st : Chill Touch
2nd : Resist Energy, if you choose cold
3rd : Protection from Energy, if you choose cold ; Sleet Storm
4th : Ice Storm ; Wall of Ice
5th : Cone of Cold
6th : Freezing Sphere
7th : Control Weather (debatable)
8th : Polar Ray
9th : Nothing (Using Wish to duplicate one of the others is just casting that other spell).

So, one thing immediately jumps out at me here. A wizard automatically knows three first level spells at level 1 at minimum, and learns two new spells at every new experience level. There aren't even two cold spells available at the majority of spell levels to learn. So, from the very beginning of the game, we are forced to make choices that take us further away from our intended concept, and add things we're not interested in. And it gets worse with every level gained. Remember, since you only get access to a new level of spells every two levels, there would have to be a minimum of four cold spells at every spell level in order for the frost mage to work.

And I was actually sandbagging in favor of classes with this example. Heaven forbid I choose an actually rare damage type, like acid or force or radiant to specialize in. Or if I wanted to be a wizard who focuses entirely on bringing objects to life. Or any of a million other possible character concepts.

Now let's compare that to how easy and fast it is to make a frost mage in a good game. A single power, Elemental Control, can represent pretty much anything the spells listed above can do, and a lot more besides, and I don't need to remember a bunch of different rules for every single thing I want to do. I can protect myself with armor made of ice, I can attack foes with icicle barrages, I can defend myself in close combat with an ice hammer, I can make walls of ice, I can even travel at high speed with ice slides, something that I simply can't do with any d&d cold spell.

And I can do it all from the start of the game. I don't have to wait until level 15 to be a frost wizard. I can just be a frost wizard.

Alternatively, if I prefer, I can purchase more specific powers like Blast or Strike and apply modifiers like Sweep, Burst, Area, and Reach to change how they work to fit my specific theme. I can buy Armor (Ice). I can buy Summoning and get little snowmen that follow me around. I can buy Sidekick and have an ice golem.

And since every single power I choose is something I specifically intended to get, and customized specifically to support my character, I'll actually use them, and won't forget what they do. Every option I choose supports my concept.

The best feature, of course, is that every single option mentioned is guaranteed to be neither over nor under powered relative to any other character concept, no matter what it is. There are no dominant strategies, even when every player is doing their best to make effective characters. I don't have to choose between flavor and roleplaying and fun and being relevant to the game and the game being easy to understand and to play. I can have it all.

 

[aramis erak]

I like Narrative Tag systems be it FATE or City of Mist

My favourite system is FATE Accelerated where even PC Attributes have been redefined as narrative appeoaches that dwfines how a character acts rather than what they can do.

L5R 5e moved rings to being narrative approaches... but 5 different sets; one per category of skills: artisan approaches, martial approaches, Scholarly approaches, social approaches, and trade approaches. Makes the choice of ring easier to make.
So Air Ring is defensive movement in martial, deceit in social, perception in artisan, etc...
(prior editions had different associations - as each ring but void was tied to two more traditional attributes.)
The 5 Rings (in all editions) Water, Earth, Air, Fire, and Void.
I'm currently running it for my online group (again - we've played it before as a group), and the nuances of "describe your approach and I'll pick a ring and difficulty to match."