Elvin thinblade: Cool racial weapon or Exploited Powergamer Ploy?

I love the weapon. It got even better with weapon proficiency groups from UA and I have a character that fights with two weapons, a thinblade and a lightblade.

Of course she's not an elf so maybe it is a tad fluffy power gaming.

Drifter Bob said:

Here is another historical possibility, the sidesword. Sideswords were the predecessors of rapiers, they were heavier, and could both cut and thrust. Unlike both smallswords and rapiers, sideswords were considered both military and civilian weapons.

DB

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Sideswords/cut-and-thrust swords were both predecessors and contemporaries of rapiers. But, sideswords don't require so much extra training that it would take an exotic weapon proficiency, at least compared to a rapier or arming sword/longsword.

The picture of the thinblade in the Complete Warrior has a perfect rapier blade. The picture of the rapier in the PHB is some sort of cutlass. It's messed up.

Dark Jezter said:

Actually, I just took a closer look at both the rapier and the elven thinblade, and I noticed something...

Rapiers are not light weapons, but you can use the Weapon Finesse feat with it. You cannot add 1 1/2 your strength modifier to damage rolls if you use a rapier two-handed.

Elven thinblades are not light weapons, but you can you the Weapon Finesse feat with them. However, there is no mention of not being able to use it two-handed to add 1 1/2 your strength modifier to damage rolls.

This makes me wonder if the elven thinblade really is overpowered. Certainly it beats the crap out of a longsword; it has a better threat range, it can be finessed, and you can use it effectively two-handed.

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Keep in mind though, it's doing this at the cost of an extra feat - Exotic Weapon Proficiency. In general, exotic weapons in the core rules see one or two "bumps" in utility above a martial weapon; a higher damage die, an increased critical threat range, etc.

I'm on the fence on this one. On the one hand, I'm with the group that says, "it's just a rapier with the word 'elvish' in front of it, which apparently automatically makes it better." On the other hand, I don't see it as mechanically out of whack - if someone pays a Feat for Exotic Weapon proficiency, they can "boost" their longsword into a bastard sword... why not let a rapier get "boosted" into a thinblade?

Thus, the answer to the question is, "neither." It's not powergaming cheese, but it's not a cool racial weapon, either, having no good explanation for its properties other than the word "elvish" in front.

--The Sigil

Cool racial weapon because Deedlit uses one...

I voted Exploited Powergamer Ploy.

The weapon itself is fine. But the weapon combined with Weapon Familiarity is taking us down the road toward "being a human is stupid." 3e finally made humans a solid, viable class, but Racial PrCs, and now Weapon Familiarity, are taking us back down the path toward demi-humans being clearly superior.

Either remove Weapon Familiarity entirely, or give humans Weapon Familiarity with the Bastard Sword and/or Spiked Chain.

Uh...

BelXiror said:

Up until it's inclusion, only 2 core races didn't have racial weapons, not including the half-races, and they were the Halfling and the Elf.

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Which is the circuitous way of saying that only the Dwarf and Gnome have racial weapons, right?

Anyway, another vote for cool racial weapon. As most here agree, it matches the character of elves, adds racial flavor, and is not mechanically unbalanced considering its exotic weapon classification.

oops, see my next post

DB

aurance said:

Sideswords/cut-and-thrust swords were both predecessors and contemporaries of rapiers. But, sideswords don't require so much extra training that it would take an exotic weapon proficiency, at least compared to a rapier or arming sword/longsword.

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Well, that is arguable, an arming sword is meant to be used in conjunction with a large shield, which is a much simpler though not necessarily inferior style to the kind of sword and buckler / sword and dagger methods used with the Sidesword. (Long held RPG tradition notwithstanding, Longswords are two handed weapons and their use is extremely sophisticated...) If you think sidesword is simple you should try studying some Marozzo some time...

But, a rapier is definately a more specialized weapon than a sidesword, and we don't want to go backward. IN that case, I return to my first suggestion: the msallsword. Smallswords are even more specialized thrusting weapons than rapiers are. IMO, both rapiers and Smallswords should require advanced training (expertise), they are both far more difficult to learn to use effectively than say, a cutlass or a mace, and since both are civilian weapons, their use would not necessarily be training for the typical soldier or even knight.

Thats one of the reasons why aristocrats liked them so much, you could basically buy proficiency with them by hiring personal trainers. That and they required little strength to wield (particulalry the smallsword, the ultimate finesse weapon...)

The picture of the thinblade in the Complete Warrior has a perfect rapier blade. The picture of the rapier in the PHB is some sort of cutlass. It's messed up.

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I won't even begin to discuss the drawings of any of the weapons OR the armor in the PHB..

DB

I voted Exploited Powergamer Ploy.

The weapon itself is fine. But the weapon combined with Weapon Familiarity is taking us down the road toward "being a human is stupid." 3e finally made humans a solid, viable class, but Racial PrCs, and now Weapon Familiarity, are taking us back down the path toward demi-humans being clearly superior.

Either remove Weapon Familiarity entirely, or give humans Weapon Familiarity with the Bastard Sword and/or Spiked Chain.

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Humans are a little TOO good. Weapon Familiarity actually helps balance them.

Drifter Bob said:

Well, that is arguable, an arming sword is meant to be used in conjunction with a large shield, which is a much simpler though not necessarily inferior style to the kind of sword and buckler / sword and dagger methods used with the Sidesword. (Long held RPG tradition notwithstanding, Longswords are two handed weapons and their use is extremely sophisticated...) If you think sidesword is simple you should try studying some Marozzo some time...

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Oh no no, I wasn't implying that sidesword is simple. Not at all. But neither are the rapier, two-hander, or many of the others classified as "martial weapons." I would say their training times are about equivalent.

I know D&D longsword is a different beast than the historical longsword

Drifter Bob said:

But, a rapier is definately a more specialized weapon than a sidesword, and we don't want to go backward. IN that case, I return to my first suggestion: the msallsword. Smallswords are even more specialized thrusting weapons than rapiers are. IMO, both rapiers and Smallswords should require advanced training (expertise), they are both far more difficult to learn to use effectively than say, a cutlass or a mace, and since both are civilian weapons, their use would not necessarily be training for the typical soldier or even knight.

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I wouldn't say the sidesword is "backward" from the rapier. It continued to serve in warfare when the rapier took the lead in civilian defense.

Anyway I agree that the sidesword and smallsword are not really replicated by any current D&D statistics, but neither really fits the description of the thinblade as put forth by WotC in Dragon magazine or the Complete Warrior.

If I had to take a guess, maybe the thinblade is something related to the estoc. Here is a description from the Wikipedia:

"As armor improved, so did the methods of attacking the armor. It was quickly realized that cutting weapons were losing their effectiveness, so crushing weapons such as maces and axes were utilized. But thrusting weapons that could split the rings of mail, or find the joints and crevices of plate, were employed. Thus was the Estoc developed. Estoc is French, meaning thrust or point. Tuck is the English version of the word. Many consider the Tuck a forerunner of the rapier, but more likely it is a merging of the civilian sword (Espada Ropera) with the effective, and lighter tuck, that produced the rapier. But the tuck was an effective weapon. The long, straight blade, very rigid could be thrust with one hand, or the second hand could be used to grip the blade to deliver an even more powerful thrust."

This seems to fit well with the rulebook texts.