D&D 5E I think I finally get how hiding works

MerricB · Aug 21, 2014

designbot said:
I disagree. Giving away your location is different from remaining unseen. You should be able to attack, and hide in the same spot again, as long as you still meet the vision requirements that allowed you to hide in the first place. Creatures will know you are there, but they will have disadvantage on attacks because they can't see you.

Note that Mike Mearls explicitly answered this on twitter: You can hide in the same place. He also said that it's fair for the DM to impose disadvantage on that Stealth check.

I interpret that as just describing where you can try to hide. Once you have successfully hidden, you stay hidden "until you are discovered or you stop hiding". (p. 177)

Pretty much.

My take on Stealth and Hiding is here: http://merricb.com/2014/08/13/being-stealthy-in-dungeons-dragons-5e/

Cheers!

Melkor · Aug 21, 2014

Am I alone in thinking that it's rather ridiculous that, as written in the new edition, we have go to these lengths to try and interpret the hiding/obscurity rules?

Crothian · Aug 22, 2014

Melkor said:
Am I alone in thinking that it's rather ridiculous that, as written in the new edition, we have go to these lengths to try and interpret the hiding/obscurity rules?

I think it is a reflection of the over analysis of the rules that constantly goes on here and few games will ever have these kinds of issues at the gaming table.

MerricB · Aug 22, 2014

Melkor said:
Am I alone in thinking that it's rather ridiculous that, as written in the new edition, we have go to these lengths to try and interpret the hiding/obscurity rules?

No, you're not.

I really, really wonder if the reason the stealth rules are so obscure (wording totally intended) is because the DMG handles them at more length...

Cheers!

HabitualErrant · Aug 22, 2014

Melkor said:
Am I alone in thinking that it's rather ridiculous that, as written in the new edition, we have go to these lengths to try and interpret the hiding/obscurity rules?

I'm not sure. I think that it would be easy to make a ruling as a DM that worked and I don't think that it really matters what that ruling is as long as your players know how stealth is done at the table. What I guess I'm saying is that the tools are there for a DM to decide how the situation plays out, which also give a flexibility that is sometimes necessary

That being said, clearer definitions in the rulebooks would be ideal since that's what they're for.

It's also worth noting that the sample of people here is probably a little skewed. I would imagine that a lot of people read the rules, interpreted them however they'll be running them, and moved on. Of course many of those people wouldn't bother with this thread.

Sir Brennen · Aug 22, 2014

designbot said:
No, I don't think I would quite agree. There is no explicit definition of a "hidden" status that grants special benefits. Hiding is an action you can take. I think it's possible to hide from an enemy in some situations (meaning they have to make a Perception check vs. your Stealth to see you), even though they know where you are.

I could be wrong.

Hiding, being hidden, taking the Hide action, makes your location unknown, by both making you unseen and unheard. In certain circumstances, it makes your presence unknown, if a creature isn't already aware of you. If they are aware of you, you do it to conceal your exact location. Even an invisible creature has to try and Hide to conceal it's current position. Those are special benefits, if not explicitly game mechanical ones.

As Mearls mentioned on twitter, common sense can be applied. If you keep hiding and attacking from the same spot, your target is going to be more wary of that position, possibly gaining Advantage on his Perception check or Passive Perception. In those situations, your really kind of negating the main benefit of hiding, by staying in the location where you've already revealed yourself.

That's why I would rule that if you make a series of such attacks as a sniping tactic, for instance, you lose Advantage for attacking unseen once you've been spotted, if the attack requires you to reveal yourself, such as from behind total cover, unless you change your location after a successful Hide action. I would also apply Advantage to Perception against your Stealth once you have been see as well, regardless of concealment type, until you manage to change your location without being noticed.

You can still hide in the same location, which if it's only lightly obscured and you have a ability that lets you hide under those conditions, then at least you give Disadvantage to attacks against you for being unseen. If it's Heavily Obscured or Total Cover, they can't see you anyway, so the only reason to hide would be to change locations, and attack unseen from a new spot.

Sir Brennen · Aug 22, 2014

HabitualErrant said:
It's also worth noting that the sample of people here is probably a little skewed. I would imagine that a lot of people read the rules, interpreted them however they'll be running them, and moved on. Of course many of those people wouldn't bother with this thread.

Or this:

Psikerlord# · Aug 22, 2014

Melkor said:
Am I alone in thinking that it's rather ridiculous that, as written in the new edition, we have go to these lengths to try and interpret the hiding/obscurity rules?

Not alone, and even worse the first combat in the starter set involves hiding.... I just hope the DMG has a big paragraph on rules as guides and for the table to tweak the rules as they please. Then the precise phb hiding rules won't matter.

Plaguescarred · Aug 22, 2014

Pretty good rundown of the Stealth rules by Designbot!

Another thing i'd like to mention is that hiding is active, not passive, so is the outcome of not be hidden anymore. You must take an action to hide. Similarly, you must do something to not be hidden anymore (attacking, moving in plain view or making noise for exemple), and others must take an action to search for you, move in a position to see you or otherwise do something else i.e dispel magical darkness. If no action or movement is performed whatsoever by anyone, you should remain hidden in most case.

designbot said:
I think it's possible to hide from an enemy in some situations (meaning they have to make a Perception check vs. your Stealth to see you), even though they know where you are.

I think so too, for exemple when a halfling hides behind an ally (or an elf hide in a small foliage) which you otherwise can see all around (because lightly obscurement doesn't block vision like heavy one do), i'd say you should have a good idea where the hidden creature is, even though you can't see and hear it since you saw it until it hid. Same if a human hides in a 5' sphere of magical darkness for exemple, walking all around should give you a good idea where the hidden creature is, even though you can't see and hear it.

Psikerlord# · Aug 22, 2014

Plaguescarred said:
Pretty good rundown of the Stealth rules by Designbot!

Another thing i'd like to mention is that hiding is active, not passive, so is the outcome of not be hidden anymore. You must take an action to hide. Similarly, you must do something to not be Pashidden anymore (attacking, moving in plain view or making noise for exemple), and others must take an action to search for you, move in a position to see you or otherwise do something else i.e dispel magical darkness. If no action or movement is performed whatsoever by anyone, you should remain hidden in most case.

I think so too, for exemple when a halfling hides behind an ally (or an elf hide in a small foliage) which you otherwise can see all around (because lightly obscurement doesn't block vision like heavy one do), i'd say you should have a good idea where the hidden creature is, even though you can't see and hear it since you saw it until it hid. Same if a human hides in a 5' sphere of magical darkness for exemple, walking all around should give you a good idea where the hidden creature is, even though you can't see and hear it.

If you're in combat trying to hide, and your opponent knows you are somewhere nearby, in my view it would be a contest - an active stealth check vs an active perception check. Passive is for when you're wandering along, not really paying attention, the pre-ambush time. Once the fight is on, I think active checks are more appropriate - and that active check is prompted by the hiding character, eg if the kobold tries to hide mid combat, then the PC he is fighting gets to roll perception due to the contest. If the kobold manages to hide, then fair enough the PC has to spend his next action looking for him (or do something else).