So The Jester Made it In

Your ignorance of 4e is really hurting whatever point you're trying to make here. Rogues did not depend on daily attack powers to deliver striker-level DPR, they could do so even sticking to at-will, all strikers could.

The Rogue is different from other weapon-using classes in 5e, since it gets a scaling damage boost to a single attack instead of depending on more problematic multi-attacking to improve DPR as a it levels. That's not a major obstacle to design, though.

That appeal to popularity has been done to death. We've never seen any evidence to back it up, on the few surveys we've seen it's come in closer to the middle of the pack, with classes less popular than it seeing the inside of the 5e PH. Even were it true, it wouldn't be a valid reason for exclusion: the mere fact that a minority is outnumbered does not justify persecution.

There were two fighter sub-classes, and one rogue sub-class touching on the Warlord concept published prior to the College of Satire touching upon the Jester in UA. The two offerings on DMsG are just two more fighter sub-classes, an approach that just can't succeed, they're even not worth a look, no matter how low the price. For may fans, nothing un-official is ever going to matter, getting or blocking the Warlord for them is as much about WotC making a statement validating that desire or the vindictive need to thwart it as providing a feature 5e needs or saving the dead trees that it might be printed on.

4E striker delat less damage than 3.x type strikers and Rogues have the 3E levels of sneak attack damage they just can't do it more than once per turn. An at will 6d6 sneak attack is equivalent to a 4E daily power probably around level 11 or so if I had to guess off the top of my head.

Hell one can duplicate 4E witht he existing OGL. I suspect the main reason a clone has not turned up is its not popular enough vs the amount of work required cloning an OSR game. You can't get a functional and balanced 4E type warlord in 45E due to the basic mechanical design of the edition as 5E is lower powered than 4E.
 
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Your ignorance of 4e is really hurting whatever point you're trying to make here. Rogues did not depend on daily attack powers to deliver striker-level DPR, they could do so even sticking to at-will, all strikers could.

The Rogue is different from other weapon-using classes in 5e, since it gets a scaling damage boost to a single attack instead of depending on more problematic multi-attacking to improve DPR as a it levels. That's not a major obstacle to design, though.
Zardnaar is accurate.
Rogues in 4e only ever did a couple extra d6 of damage, which was their sneak attack dice. That was their striker damage, and separated them from other classes, in addition to occasionally higher numbers in Encounter and Daily powers. So granting them an extra melee basic attack only did a "piddly 2 extra dice" compared to any other class.
As he says, the battle master's superiority die granted attack synergizes very nicely with the rogue, since it grants at least an additional d8 damage and has the potential for sneak attack damage. It's a very high damage spike in place of a single attack, and a very effective strategy.

That appeal to popularity has been done to death. We've never seen any evidence to back it up, on the few surveys we've seen it's come in closer to the middle of the pack, with classes less popular than it seeing the inside of the 5e PH. Even were it true, it wouldn't be a valid reason for exclusion: the mere fact that a minority is outnumbered does not justify persecution.
Other than the dearth of popular warlords on the DMsGuild website that are moving copies.
If the warlord was half as popular as you insist, there would have been a half-dozen warlords, commanders, generals, and marshals on the store, and a couple would be Silver best sellers or at least Copper. Rather than two that haven't been able to move 50 copies in a month or 3 weeks respectively.
Similarly, if there was a strong demand for an actual warlord class revealed through the surveys, then WotC would have probably given us a playtest of one already.

There were two fighter sub-classes, and one rogue sub-class touching on the Warlord concept published prior to the College of Satire touching upon the Jester in UA. The two offerings on DMsG are just two more fighter sub-classes, an approach that just can't succeed, they're even not worth a look, no matter how low the price.
So you're not even going to support people trying to make content for you? You've said yourself you have no intention of ever designing your own warlord class, and you don't want to financially support fan efforts either?
That's not a great way of encouraging future designers to attempt a full class...

For may fans, nothing un-official is ever going to matter, getting or blocking the Warlord for them is as much about WotC making a statement validating that desire or the vindictive need to thwart it as providing a feature 5e needs or saving the dead trees that it might be printed on.
I think that a very, very, very small number of people view the walord that way. Like under a dozen.
It's also a very edition war laden statement and I don't think many people care about the edition wars any more. People fight edition wars when they're unhappy, and there's just not enough people really unhappy now for the edition wars to matter. The people who like 3e have Pathfinder, the people who like 4e still have 4e, and everyone else has 5e which is doing gangbusters. The edition wars are over.

Ultimatums like that don't work. The fanbase is too large and has too many voices for small opinions to really resonate. They have larger issues about managing the entire game line to really concern themselves with small message board squabbles. We frequent message boards on our free time because D&D is our hobby. D&D is their job, and they have work to do which likely means little time to surf message boards; doing so at home is akin to working on your off hours. Not very fun.
 

Zardnaar is accurate.
Rogues in 4e only ever did a couple extra d6 of damage, which was their sneak attack dice. That was their striker damage, and separated them from other classes, in addition to occasionally higher numbers in Encounter and Daily powers. So granting them an extra melee basic attack only did a "piddly 2 extra dice" compared to any other class.
As he says, the battle master's superiority die granted attack synergizes very nicely with the rogue, since it grants at least an additional d8 damage and has the potential for sneak attack damage. It's a very high damage spike in place of a single attack, and a very effective strategy.


Other than the dearth of popular warlords on the DMsGuild website that are moving copies.
If the warlord was half as popular as you insist, there would have been a half-dozen warlords, commanders, generals, and marshals on the store, and a couple would be Silver best sellers or at least Copper. Rather than two that haven't been able to move 50 copies in a month or 3 weeks respectively.
Similarly, if there was a strong demand for an actual warlord class revealed through the surveys, then WotC would have probably given us a playtest of one already.


So you're not even going to support people trying to make content for you? You've said yourself you have no intention of ever designing your own warlord class, and you don't want to financially support fan efforts either?
That's not a great way of encouraging future designers to attempt a full class...


I think that a very, very, very small number of people view the walord that way. Like under a dozen.
It's also a very edition war laden statement and I don't think many people care about the edition wars any more. People fight edition wars when they're unhappy, and there's just not enough people really unhappy now for the edition wars to matter. The people who like 3e have Pathfinder, the people who like 4e still have 4e, and everyone else has 5e which is doing gangbusters. The edition wars are over.

Ultimatums like that don't work. The fanbase is too large and has too many voices for small opinions to really resonate. They have larger issues about managing the entire game line to really concern themselves with small message board squabbles. We frequent message boards on our free time because D&D is our hobby. D&D is their job, and they have work to do which likely means little time to surf message boards; doing so at home is akin to working on your off hours. Not very fun.

I don't trust 3rd party material to be balanced. Now if someone or some company had a very good reputation for developing third party content then that would be a different story.
 

I don't trust 3rd party material to be balanced. Now if someone or some company had a very good reputation for developing third party content then that would be a different story.
Well, with ratings and word of mouth, a bad product can damage an aspiring writer's career. So putting out a crap product just hurts them, so they're incentivized to bring their A-game.
And 3PP can't update and edit their products, responding to feedback and playtesting on a regular basis, while the WotC books are unchangable.
And it's not like WotC products are perfect, or have ever been perfect. There are poor quality classes on the DMsGuild that are likely less broken than the moon druid and beast master ranger. (To say nothing of the Unearthed Arcana content that mostly looks like it was hammered out in a weekend.)
And a fan product done out of love might involve days or weeks more time and effort than anything released by WotC. Because you don't work a regular work week on a passion product.

Not even considering a 3PP is pretty arbitrary at this point. There are some amazing designers working. Heck, several products on the DMs Guild are done by people who freelance for WotC and write official content. Or who were on the WotC staff until they retired or were laid off.
 

Well, with ratings and word of mouth, a bad product can damage an aspiring writer's career. So putting out a crap product just hurts them, so they're incentivized to bring their A-game.
And 3PP can't update and edit their products, responding to feedback and playtesting on a regular basis, while the WotC books are unchangable.
And it's not like WotC products are perfect, or have ever been perfect. There are poor quality classes on the DMsGuild that are likely less broken than the moon druid and beast master ranger. (To say nothing of the Unearthed Arcana content that mostly looks like it was hammered out in a weekend.)
And a fan product done out of love might involve days or weeks more time and effort than anything released by WotC. Because you don't work a regular work week on a passion product.

Not even considering a 3PP is pretty arbitrary at this point. There are some amazing designers working. Heck, several products on the DMs Guild are done by people who freelance for WotC and write official content. Or who were on the WotC staff until they retired or were laid off.

LOL. Potential Bad ratings and word of mouth have never stopped a bad product from being placed on the market. Heck most companies that place "bad" products out probably don't even believe their product is bad.

Find me a person with a solid reputation that has a good part of the community ready to accept his works and we might be onto something. As it stands I don't have the time to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm sure there's tons of good third party products out there. I'm also sure there's tons of bad ones, or to be more polite, tons of third party products that aren't for me.
 

I don't trust 3rd party material to be balanced. Now if someone or some company had a very good reputation for developing third party content then that would be a different story.

Get the cheap stuff and read reviews. I found lots of $2 PDFs from the OSR side of things during the boycott WoTC phase I went through (2008-2012). Take EN5ider for example a few of the archetypes there are fun, playable and not broken. Some are a bit meh but so is the PHB so I do not mind.
 

LOL. Potential Bad ratings and word of mouth have never stopped a bad product from being placed on the market. Heck most companies that place "bad" products out probably don't even believe their product is bad.

Find me a person with a solid reputation that has a good part of the community ready to accept his works and we might be onto something. As it stands I don't have the time to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm sure there's tons of good third party products out there. I'm also sure there's tons of bad ones, or to be more polite, tons of third party products that aren't for me.
This is a little like saying "there's only so much time, so I only watched movies released by Disney Studios." Which is fine so long as you realize how arbitrary it is.

When David Noonan is doing products the quality must be something you'd consider. And when one of the authors of Hoard of the Queen releases a Tyranny of Dragons expansion, how different is that from official?
And right now "WotC" as far as D&D is concerned is Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford. Two writers who got their start writing 3rd Party Products. So WotC isn't *that* different from most 3rd Party Publishers. There are 3PP done by people with more experience and credits than those making the official books.

The difference is really the name. You're buying the "WotC" brand.


All I know is, there's a lot of awesome stuff on the DMs Guild that is waaaay better than the content in Unearthed Arcana.
 

This is a little like saying "there's only so much time, so I only watched movies released by Disney Studios." Which is fine so long as you realize how arbitrary it is.

When David Noonan is doing products the quality must be something you'd consider. And when one of the authors of Hoard of the Queen releases a Tyranny of Dragons expansion, how different is that from official?
And right now "WotC" as far as D&D is concerned is Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford. Two writers who got their start writing 3rd Party Products. So WotC isn't *that* different from most 3rd Party Publishers. There are 3PP done by people with more experience and credits than those making the official books.

The difference is really the name. You're buying the "WotC" brand.


All I know is, there's a lot of awesome stuff on the DMs Guild that is waaaay better than the content in Unearthed Arcana.

From the publishers of HotDQ is not exactly a ringing endorsement for me either as that adventure was bad lol.

Key to selling on the DMGuild is a pretty cover.
 

Key to selling on the DMGuild is a pretty cover.

It's a work in progress but I'm almost there.

MyWarlod.jpg

By Etch A Sketch.
 

If that's a sword & shield, he looks entirely to fight-y to pass for a "real" warlord. He should instead be sitting in a Lazy-Boy recliner, holding a pom-pom in one hand and a bullhorn in the other.

What?... ;)
 

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