Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

RhaezDaevan · Feb 20, 2019

Some thoughts on the enforcer/thug rogue:

To make it get use from strength and also make it more sturdy, they could get temp hp at the start of each of their turns equal to strength modifier, or maybe even proficiency bonus + strength modifier, though that allows multiclass shenanigans. Another possibility would be to pull a barb/monk and give them their own AC calculation. 10 + strength mod + dex mod sound OK? Maybe some combination of AC calc and temp hp will make them beefy rogues.

On the offense end of things, perhaps they get both dex and strength to damage with melee attacks, and once per round get sneak attack damage on melee attacks against targets without full hp. Essentially picking on the wounded, which fits thematically as I see this archetype as bullies. Not exactly heroic, but pobody's nerfect. I wouldn't give them extra attack though. Let them fight their own way. Maybe a free intimidate with advantage on a critical hit? Cowers in fear on a success? Not sure what the target should defend with though.

On weapons, I don't think they need to be given all melee weapons. Polearms don't fit the theme at all IMO, and neither does greataxe, greatsword or maul. Club, great club and mace work though. Perhaps warhammer, battleaxe, longsword and spear too.

Any of that tickle your fancy?

doctorbadwolf · Feb 20, 2019

RhaezDaevan said:
Some thoughts on the enforcer/thug rogue:

To make it get use from strength and also make it more sturdy, they could get temp hp at the start of each of their turns equal to strength modifier, or maybe even proficiency bonus + strength modifier, though that allows multiclass shenanigans. Another possibility would be to pull a barb/monk and give them their own AC calculation. 10 + strength mod + dex mod sound OK? Maybe some combination of AC calc and temp hp will make them beefy rogues.

On the offense end of things, perhaps they get both dex and strength to damage with melee attacks, and once per round get sneak attack damage on melee attacks against targets without full hp. Essentially picking on the wounded, which fits thematically as I see this archetype as bullies. Not exactly heroic, but pobody's nerfect. I wouldn't give them extra attack though. Let them fight their own way. Maybe a free intimidate with advantage on a critical hit? Cowers in fear on a success? Not sure what the target should defend with though.

On weapons, I don't think they need to be given all melee weapons. Polearms don't fit the theme at all IMO, and neither does greataxe, greatsword or maul. Club, great club and mace work though. Perhaps warhammer, battleaxe, longsword and spear too.

Any of that tickle your fancy?

I like intimidate upon crit. Once per X advantage against targets at less than full HP could definitely work.

RhaezDaevan · Feb 20, 2019

For a master thrower rogue, I have the idea of them getting sneak attack damage with thrown weapon attacks against targets that haven't moved on their last turn. Not sure how it would be worded, but basically enemies that aren't moving each round are easier targets.

Also maybe advantage with thrown weapon attacks against enemies who try to move away from the rogue. Try to run from me? Axe in the back!

It may be monk-ish but I also see them catching thrown weapons sent there way out of the air and spending their reaction throwing it back at them. I see this in movies frequently. Big Trouble in Little China anyone?

Guest 6801328 · Feb 20, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Edut: is that a Final Fantasy 9 reference, btw?

WoW.

It's been years since I've played, but I'm almost tempted to pay for one month so I can log in, equip my Warglaives of Azzinoth*, and take a screen shot for you.

*Earned the HONEST way, during The Burning Crusade expansion. I would show up in battlegrounds with them, and strangers would follow me around, heal-botting me while I carved through legions.

It was...glorious.

Here's a random screenshot of them (not me):

EDIT:
Oh, wait, THERE I AM. Right as the opening credits vanish, just above the two blue bars. (Only one warglaive at that point.)
[video=youtube;LQjCzS5AN6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQjCzS5AN6w[/video]

A lot of TTRPGers dismiss video games, and I don't play myself anymore either, but I really cherish those...countless hours...gaming with that group. Still in touch with many of them, 11 years later.

doctorbadwolf · Feb 21, 2019

RhaezDaevan said:
For a master thrower rogue, I have the idea of them getting sneak attack damage with thrown weapon attacks against targets that haven't moved on their last turn. Not sure how it would be worded, but basically enemies that aren't moving each round are easier targets.

I really like that. Nice.

Also maybe advantage with thrown weapon attacks against enemies who try to move away from the rogue. Try to run from me? Axe in the back!

Like adv on opportunity attacks? I’m for it.

It may be monk-ish but I also see them catching thrown weapons sent there way out of the air and spending their reaction throwing it back at them. I see this in movies frequently. Big Trouble in Little China anyone?

Absolutely. I don’t think monks need monopoly on that in order to be unique.

Elfcrusher said:
WoW.

It's been years since I've played, but I'm almost tempted to pay for one month so I can log in, equip my Warglaives of Azzinoth*, and take a screen shot for you.

*Earned the HONEST way, during The Burning Crusade expansion. I would show up in battlegrounds with them, and strangers would follow me around, heal-botting me while I carved through legions.

It was...glorious.

Here's a random screenshot of them (not me):

EDIT:
Oh, wait, THERE I AM. Right as the opening credits vanish, just above the two blue bars. (Only one warglaive at that point.)
[video=youtube;LQjCzS5AN6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQjCzS5AN6w[/video]

A lot of TTRPGers dismiss video games, and I don't play myself anymore either, but I really cherish those...countless hours...gaming with that group. Still in touch with many of them, 11 years later.

Niiiiiiice. I kinda miss WoW, but I never even hit high levels when I played. I think I maxed in the 20’s on my warlock and my pally.

For reference on why I thought of ff9:

CapnZapp · Feb 21, 2019

As an aside, the Assassin subclass falls completely flat for us. Nobody is interested in sitting on their hands while a single character sneaks away to set up a juicy ambush. We consider D&D a group activity.

The Rogue needs a damage bonus that works when she travels in a group. We quickly realized the whole group will basically never manage surprise, since there's always at least one character (a human) that needs light. And to a lesser extent, there's usually one character wearing sneak-disadvantaged armor.

Plus, getting a crit isn't all that. 5th edition monsters have LOTS of hit points, and crits aren't even twice the damage. And to be honest, Rogues are far from the top when it comes to nova damage. Rogues are like fighters - they're martial. That means reliable damage all day long, not smitin' or fireballin' for a hectic minute then taking a nap. That "reliable damage" is diametrically opposite to what I want out of an Assassinate character (=one HUGE hit, then back into the shadows), assuming the other players are okay to watch your one man show, of course.

As a final depressing note... If you can one-shot a monster with your critical sneak, chances are you're overleveled for the area anyway, so why not just steamroll the foes and save some time and involve everyone? (If Assassinate multiplied damage by 5 or even 8, then we would be talking...)

Guest 6801328 · Feb 21, 2019

CapnZapp said:
As an aside, the Assassin subclass falls completely flat for us. Nobody is interested in sitting on their hands while a single character sneaks away to set up a juicy ambush. We consider D&D a group activity.

The Rogue needs a damage bonus that works when she travels in a group. We quickly realized the whole group will basically never manage surprise, since there's always at least one character (a human) that needs light. And to a lesser extent, there's usually one character wearing sneak-disadvantaged armor.

Plus, getting a crit isn't all that. 5th edition monsters have LOTS of hit points, and crits aren't even twice the damage. And to be honest, Rogues are far from the top when it comes to nova damage. Rogues are like fighters - they're martial. That means reliable damage all day long, not smitin' or fireballin' for a hectic minute then taking a nap. That "reliable damage" is diametrically opposite to what I want out of an Assassinate character (=one HUGE hit, then back into the shadows), assuming the other players are okay to watch your one man show, of course.

As a final depressing note... If you can one-shot a monster with your critical sneak, chances are you're overleveled for the area anyway, so why not just steamroll the foes and save some time and involve everyone? (If Assassinate multiplied damage by 5 or even 8, then we would be talking...)

I'll note that level 17+ assassins do get (approximately) 4x damage. But, yeah, otherwise the above are fair observations. And at the same time I can understand and even agree with WotC's apparently intentional decision to not use subclasses to increase rogue DPR.

TwoSix · Feb 21, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
For reference on why I thought of ff9: View attachment 104960

Man, between Zidane and Serge in Chrono Cross, double weapons must have been a thing at the turn of the millennium. I mean, they were in the 3e PHB also!

Guest 6801328 · Feb 21, 2019

TwoSix said:
Man, between Zidane and Serge in Chrono Cross, double weapons must have been a thing at the turn of the millennium. I mean, they were in the 3e PHB also!

I had always faulted (or credited, if you are so inclined) The Phantom Menace for starting that particular trend. But maybe I'm falsely attributing that, and even that was just a response to the trend more than a reason for it.

doctorbadwolf · Feb 21, 2019

TwoSix said:
Man, between Zidane and Serge in Chrono Cross, double weapons must have been a thing at the turn of the millennium. I mean, they were in the 3e PHB also!

id never realized that before, but yeah, you’re right. Also, when did Eberron, with its Valenar double scimitars, come out?

Elfcrusher said:
I had always faulted (or credited, if you are so inclined) The Phantom Menace for starting that particular trend. But maybe I'm falsely attributing that, and even that was just a response to the trend more than a reason for it.

Hard to say. When did Chrono Cross and FF9 come out?

Elfcrusher said:
I'll note that level 17+ assassins do get (approximately) 4x damage. But, yeah, otherwise the above are fair observations. And at the same time I can understand and even agree with WotC's apparently intentional decision to not use subclasses to increase rogue DPR.

IMO, they did use subclasses to increase average DPR, in the Swashbuckler and Inquisitive, who both have more reliable Sneak Attack. I think they just also don’t see “the rogue does less damage than other weapon classes” as a bad thing.

for the record, neither do I. Like I said in the OP, I fall in the camp of “the rogue is fine and fun but there is room for a more combat/damage focused rogue for those who want it.”

edit: arcane trickster has higher dpr as well, but mostly via Spells that came out after the phb.

Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

RhaezDaevan

Adventurer

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

RhaezDaevan

Adventurer

Guest 6801328

Guest

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

CapnZapp

Legend

Guest 6801328

Guest

TwoSix

Everyone's literal second-favorite poster

Guest 6801328

Guest

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

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