Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

[TwoSix]

id never realized that before, but yeah, you’re right. Also, when did Eberron, with its Valenar double scimitars, come out?

Hard to say. When did Chrono Cross and FF9 come out?

Eberron was 2004. CC and FF9 were both 2000 in North America, and I think 1999 in Japan.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'll note that level 17+ assassins do get (approximately) 4x damage. But, yeah, otherwise the above are fair observations. And at the same time I can understand and even agree with WotC's apparently intentional decision to not use subclasses to increase rogue DPR.

They did not use anything to increase Rogue DPR.

That's the point. There are no specific sneak attack enhancing magic items for instance. No feats. No subclasses. No optional rules. No nothing.
(There is, as I have already said, Haste and Speed Potions. But I don't believe for a second WotC intended for every rogue to gain Haste in every fight)

This means the Rogue is either overpowered in "everything off" games (yeah right), or that it is underpowered in "everything on" games.

Either way, it is piss poor design.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Eberron was 2004. CC and FF9 were both 2000 in North America, and I think 1999 in Japan.

makes sense. Some sort of dual blade zeitgeist!

They did not use anything to increase Rogue DPR.

That's the point. There are no specific sneak attack enhancing magic items for instance. No feats. No subclasses. No optional rules. No nothing.
(There is, as I have already said, Haste and Speed Potions. But I don't believe for a second WotC intended for every rogue to gain Haste in every fight)

This means the Rogue is either overpowered in "everything off" games (yeah right), or that it is underpowered in "everything on" games.

Either way, it is piss poor design.

Is it? The rogue not being a combat beast is poor design? I’m all for options that accommodate a stronger combat focus, but I think that’s a pretty spurious claim you’re making.

Rogues get a lot of benefit from accuracy increases, get more out of dual wielding, get more out of crossbow expert than others do, and have more build room for specialized feats like mage slayer, war mage for arcane tricksters, magic initiate to add GFB and/or BB and find familiar, etc, skulker for permastealth builds, etc.

They don’t have a GWM and get less out of SS, but they have options, and they just aren’t as far behind as you claim. Not only that, but defensive and utility abilities also matter and factor in to balance equations.

I’m all for options to make a damage focused rogue, but the kind of hyperbolic language you use to talk about the rogue, with crap like “piss poor design”, is both nonsensical and needlessly aggravating and hostile.

 

[CapnZapp]

Rogues get a lot of benefit from accuracy increases, get more out of dual wielding, get more out of crossbow expert than others do, and have more build room for specialized feats like mage slayer, war mage for arcane tricksters, magic initiate to add GFB and/or BB and find familiar, etc, skulker for permastealth builds, etc.

They don't get more benefit out of accuracy. Dual wielding is more of a melee rogue crutch than a serious top tier DPR choice.

Crossbow Expert? Sorry you're dead wrong. The +5/-10 mechanic favors many low-damage attacks, not one big attack. Crossbow Expert favors Fighters and Rangers.

What does their "build room" got to do with feats, unless you're basically saying "okay, so feats DOESNT grant them anywhere near the DPR increase that fighters get, but look here at some other shiny stuff".

I’m all for options to make a damage focused rogue, but the kind of hyperbolic language you use to talk about the rogue, with crap like “piss poor design”, is both nonsensical and needlessly aggravating and hostile.

Nope. Leaving one class out in the cold options-wise makes no sense. The only explanation is that WotC shrugged and didn't care about games with subsystems they supplied turned on.

But my comment should be read in context. That context was Elfcrusher basically letting WotC getting away with indifference. As I read it, the implication was that subclass options isn't so bad since there's gotta be other solutions, hey?

But there are no other solutions. There are no solutions at all, in fact, except handing out free Speed potions. Which flies directly in the face of 5E's "less magic items" direction.

Now that I have pointed this out I shall return to lurking.

 

[Zardnaar]

I wish to be placed in the fourth camp:
The one that thinks Rogues shouldn't exist

That said, Arcane Tricksters have significantly more DPR than their brethren, thanks to spells like Shadow Blade, Haste, and Booming Blade.

Only at higher levels where most people don't play.

The easy solution is dual wield melee with a fighter level dip.

 

[Zardnaar]

@Thurmas that’s an interesting idea. While I like that rogues play differently than any other class, that isn’t a bad idea way to give a very simple change that brings the rogue to where many players want them.

@Jester David btw, the assassin is still a mostly exploration and interaction focused subclass. The point with the subclasses is to have 1 or more option for the rogue that adds nothing to those pillars beyond what’s in the base class. The assassin does not do that much damage in most sessions, it certainly isn’t reliable. In doing comparable damage to other damage focused options. A rogue that gives up some skill monkeying to reach the top tier in combat efficacy isn’t unreasonable.

Assassin using a hand crossbow +CBE feat is fairly reliable.

Alot of Rogue players play them terribly from a DPR perspective. They're basically working against it then complain that their Rogue doesn't deal much damage. In one case I had one of them ask me what he was doing wrong, I told him and he kept doing it and then complained about it (he was plinking away with a shortbow). After level 8 you kind of want to MC anyway into fighter/ranger.

You can also build the 4E brutal rogue in 5E and tank around in full plate and/or a shield via MCing. Most players don't though as they're to wedded to the dex based rogue in light armor idea.

I also allow 3pp feats into the game, one lets you draw multiple things a round and throw them (useful with daggers) and the other lets you add str+ dex with light weapons (short swords and daggers). So unless its a hardass DM in a private game MCINg and feats are usually an option, and its up to you or the DM to allow 3pp.

 

[TwoSix]

makes sense. Some sort of dual blade zeitgeist!

Almost a dual of fates!

 

[Zardnaar]

Almost a dual of fates!

10 Hours of it.

[video=youtube;KmNe7H6qE5Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmNe7H6qE5Y[/video]

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They don't get more benefit out of accuracy. Dual wielding is more of a melee rogue crutch than a serious top tier DPR choice.

are you joking? Missing 1 attack in a round for a Fighter after level 11 is negligible. For a rogue, hitting with the first attack more reliable means more SA per combat, and greater ability to use Cunning Action, and better ability to get the most out of things like Magic Initiate for SCAG cantrips attacks.

Crossbow Expert? Sorry you're dead wrong. The +5/-10 mechanic favors many low-damage attacks, not one big attack. Crossbow Expert favors Fighters and Rangers.

crossbow expert doesn’t have a -5/+10 mechanic, so how is -5/+10 even relevant to the utility of it on a rogue? CE is good for a rogue because they can use their bonus action to get a second chance at SA when they miss, and keep a reasonable distance from the scariest melee enemies.

What does their "build room" got to do with feats, unless you're basically saying "okay, so feats DOESNT grant them anywhere near the DPR increase that fighters get, but look here at some other shiny stuff".

What? Seriously? The mind boggles at this whole post, zapp.

Rogues are more free than GWF types or multiattack archers to pursue feats like mage slayer, mobile, war caster (for gish rogues), magic initiate, skulker (for the ranged permastealth rogue), etc, bc they don’t have “mandatory” feats to hit some arbitrary DPR benchmark. They just need reliable SA. Also, Sentinel works fine for rogues, and it’s one of the better combat feats.

Nope. Leaving one class out in the cold options-wise makes no sense. The only explanation is that WotC shrugged and didn't care about games with subsystems they supplied turned on.

they haven’t done that.

But there are no other solutions. There are no solutions at all, in fact, except handing out free Speed potions. Which flies directly in the face of 5E's "less magic items" direction.

Now that I have pointed this out I shall return to lurking.

Nope. Provide hard numbers for your claim that rogues are a whole tier below most other damage focused classes in DPR in a game with feats.

They aren’t. They aren’t first place, and there is room to boost them A BIT without making them outshine other classes, but they aren’t a third string DPR class, at all.

 

[Zardnaar]

As I said Rogues. Assassin's get more out of CBE, theives get more out of healer, masterminds green flame blade, and all benefit from sentinel.

5E rewards teamwork as well. Battle Master fighter granting attacks. Said fighter being Dex based gives up a bit of raw damage with feats but try it out when your whole party is Dex based and trained in stealth.

Much like any build you need to know how to build it and how to use it. The plinky plinky shortbow rogue kinda sucks.