D&D General Let's Talk About How to "Fix" D&D

cbwjm said:

Part of what I'd like for a fix would require too much work, that is making all classes gain their first subclass level at level 1 and then gain additional subclass levels at the same time.

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For 5e, all classes gaining their subclass at first level is at or near the top of my list.

Biggest issues IMO:

1. Lower damage & HP, raise defenses. They had the right idea with "bounded accuracy," but went a little too far. There shouldn't be a CR 17 monster with only 17 AC. The sheer volume of dice-rolling and addition is tedious and cumbersome after about 9th level, and on top of that, it's a bit silly that an assassin can't take out an ogre until around 15th level or so.
   
   
2. Ability mods are too central. There are two issues I have here. One is that odd-numbered scores are largely meaningless. The other is that it's part of why the active numbers have gone so high. When your CON mod can give you up to +5 per hit die, and your STR/DEX can give you up to +5 per hit, you really have to jack those hit points and damage dice up to get anything done. Find another reason to make ability scores important.
   
   
3. More concrete ways to gain XP. Milestones are bad. I mean, they're great for Dragonlance-style storybook adventuring, but there's one little problem: I absolutely hate Dragonlance-style storybook adventuring. "You could give quest reward XP I guess" is half-assed. Probably bring back XP for gold.
   
   
4. Completely redo inventory. Hardly anybody uses encumbrance because it's cumbersome and requires a calculator. There are other systems out there that have inventory systems that work with pen-and-paper, there's zero reason D&D can't be one of them.

Reynard said:

So here are the rules: present a "problem" with D&D (any edition will do) and explain why you feel it is a problem (this part is really important) and the either suggest a fix, or ask for a fix from fellow community members.

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Ooh, I've got a bunch of these for 0e.

THAC0: In my experience, the best way to figure attack rolls smoothly and quickly in old-school D&D is to leave the descending AC value alone, but subtract the character's THAC0 from 21 to turn it into an attack bonus, and then roll low to hit. That is, you find the target number you need to hit by adding the target's AC and the attacker's to-hit bonus, and you want to roll that number or less. A 4th level fighter (THAC0 17 → +4 to hit) rolling to hit a target in mail armor (AC 5) has a 9-in-20 chance to hit. It's easy-peasy, and it ensures that you're always dealing with low numbers (it's nearly always single-digit addition, in fact, which for most players is going to involve the fewest mental blocks and the quickest in-your-head calculations).

Abilities & Skills: This one sort of kills two birds with one stone. In old-school D&D, there are lots of mechanics (opening doors, surprising enemies, locating traps and secret doors, hearing noise) that handled with a simple roll of 1d6, and depending on the circumstances, characters have an X-in-6 chance to succeed at the task. With the exception of opening doors (which is modified by Strength), these task-resolution rolls don't interact with the characters' ability scores in any way, although they do sometimes overlap with thieving skills. Well a long time ago, I decided to lean into this and created a skill system based on d6 rolls to entirely replace both thieving skills and all of the various d6-based mechanics in the game (as well as the D&D "general skills"/AD&D "non-weapon proficiencies" systems that I've never been particularly fond of).

How it works, in brief, is that there are 12 skills (Athletics, Civics, Craft, Diplomacy, Entertain, Knowledge, Medicine, Outdoors, Perception, Pilot, Stealth, Trade), and all characters start out with a 1-in-6 chance to pass any skill check. They can buy additional skill ranks to improve their rolls with skill points (most classes get 4 points at 1st level and extra points on odd-numbered levels; rogues start with 6 and get one point per level). Very simple, very straightforward, and it provides just enough customization that players can differentiate Bob the Fighter, who used to be a blacksmith (Craft and Trade ranks) from Fred the Fighter, who used to be a woodsman (Outdoors, Perception, and Stealth ranks).

I also found that by having this skill system in the game, it completely removed any need for raw ability checks, of the old roll-under-the-score-on-1d20 variety. If you don't use a system like general skills or non-weapon proficiencies, ability checks are totally optional in old-school D&D anyhow, and without them the ability scores themselves don't carry that much mechanical "weight." (This is good for a couple of reasons: it makes rolling your scores on 3d6 in order a tenable prospect; and it does away with the notion that a character with Dex 8 and a character with Dex 13, both rather average scores, have a 25% difference in their respective chances to pass a "Dex check," which is frankly terrible game design and not part of the original D&D rules for good reason.) In fact, I found that I could bring the ability scores all the way back to where they are in the white box: they serve as nothing more than prime requisites for the character classes, adjusting earned Experience Points as their main function (with ability score modifiers being a very minor, very secondary function of the scores).

From there, it becomes possible to go even further—to characterize the ability scores as pure abstractions rather than totalizing descriptions of character ability. The Strength stat doesn't literally represent the character's muscle and physical prowess (I have the Athletics skill doing that in my game already); it represents a character's innate fighteryness. The Intelligence score isn't the character's education or thinking and reasoning (education is handled by skills like Knowledge and Medicine; meanwhile, the player brings the thinking and reasoning). Instead, the Int score is just the character's natural mageyness. And so forth. Sometimes, to drive this home, I'll even rename the scores entirely. (In a 1920s pulp game I'm starting soon, I've renamed Strength to "Guts," Charisma to "Moxie," and so forth.)

The end result is, perhaps, an utterly foreign way to look at the ability scores as far as most D&D players are concerned. But for me, that's just another thing to like about it. It's different—in a way, it almost makes the game "mysterious" again, even to players who are otherwise old pros.

Encumbrance: Tracking encumbrance by weight is tedious, no matter whether you use the old D&D coinweights, or you switch to pounds or kilograms or stone. But I can't stand true slot systems either: any encumbrance system where you just count items (and OSR games are full of these) strikes me as intolerably abstract. So I settled on a hybrid weight–slot system. It actually works pretty well. Basically, I put 48 cells or slots on the character sheet, divided into four blocks of 12 cells each. (Here's an example from my upcoming pulp game.) Each cell can hold 1 kg of gear, so you could put a couple of daggers or 100 coins in one cell, but a sword would fill two cells. Every full block of 12 cells shifts the character into the next encumbrance tier (from MV 120' per turn down to 90', then 60', then 30').

The advantage to this system is that you never need to tally up item weights to know how encumbered you are: instead, you just glance at the sheet and see whether you've met a certain threshold or not. No need for the players to track every pound, but also no chance that That Guy will ever mysteriously undercount his carried load!

Problem Hit Points in 5e are completely and totally dependent on your class and Constitution score . . . which makes absolutely no sense given the explanation of hit points in the PHB as being a "combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck".

Solution Part 1 (fixing the class dependence aspect of this issue) Grant players an extra hit dice based off of their race/lineage. Small races (halflings, gnomes, goblins, kobolds) would get an extra 1d6, most "medium" races would get an extra d8 (Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Tieflings, Genasi, Satyrs, etc), the tougher Medium races would get an extra 1d10 (Dwarves, Warforged, Tortles, Half-Orcs, Firbolg, Hobgoblins, etc), and the really big ones would get an extra 1d12 (Orcs, Goliaths, Centaurs, Bugbears, etc).

Solution Part 2 (fixing the Constitution dependence aspect of this issue) Allow Hit Points to be based off of two different ability scores dependent on their class, alternating the ability score every level. This would keep people from being as SAD as can be, while having the definition of HP fit how they are calculated better.

Li Shenron said:

How to fix D&D:

1- accept the rule as they are (whatever edition)...
2- ...but remember Rule 0 is always the best, the game is worthless without GMing
3- get off the internet

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I would append number 3 to "- get off the internet and play D&D with someone"

dave2008 said:

We created a 2nd pool of hit points

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Sorry, but this is a big problem for me... having another mechanic. shrug I've tried similar things, and while they do work it lacks the elegance I am personally looking for. I know it works well for you, you posted on it numerous times, and that's great, but I am still looking for something already there that just needs to be realized. Maybe it's a pipedream, who knows?

Greg K said:

For 5e, all classes gaining their subclass at first level is at or near the top of my list.

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Here is my work on that in shuffling around levels 1-3:

Maybe it will work for you or give you some ideas?

fearsomepirate said:

Lower damage & HP, raise defenses. They had the right idea with "bounded accuracy," but went a little too far. There shouldn't be a CR 17 monster with only 17 AC. The sheer volume of dice-rolling and addition is tedious and cumbersome after about 9th level, and on top of that, it's a bit silly that an assassin can't take out an ogre until around 15th level or so.

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We use an option to basically half HP, but give a +4 universal bump. There is some more to it, but that is the base fix.

fearsomepirate said:

Ability mods are too central. There are two issues I have here. One is that odd-numbered scores are largely meaningless. The other is that it's part of why the active numbers have gone so high. When your CON mod can give you up to +5 per hit die, and your STR/DEX can give you up to +5 per hit, you really have to jack those hit points and damage dice up to get anything done. Find another reason to make ability scores important.

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Limit ability scores to 16, maybe 18 for races or classes which naturally will excel in something.

Another option is to increase proficiency to +8 max as well. This places more emphasis on proficiency and experience than ability scores.

AcererakTriple6 said:

Problem Hit Points in 5e are completely and totally dependent on your class and Constitution score . . . which makes absolutely no sense given the explanation of hit points in the PHB as being a "combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck".

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I agree completely. One option is to allow the PC to use any ability score (often their highest, of course) instead of just CON. You can justify any ability score, really, given the abstract nature of hit points.

Of course, this will result in everything having more hit points, in general. Personally, that is not a goal of mine, but if you don't mind it, there's no reason not to do something as you suggested or even more open as I do.

I just use Mythras instead!

Ta-da!

All the problems solved!

Yay!

Well, that's simple. Get rid of 10+ levels and flatten advancement a bit. Then, standardize the naughty word out of everything. Action surges, ki points, superiority dice? To the trash bin, turn them into "martial spells". Also get rid of alignments completely. And throw out ability scores, modifiers are enough.

Otherwise, for me there's already fixed D&D in the guise of Dungeon World.

I find that 5E lacks enough choice for character advancement. There are a lot of feats, but only a few opportunities to choose feats, so I find that only a small handful of feats are ever chosen.

Rough idea: stretch the level count back out to 30, like 4th Edition did. At certain levels, you'd gain a class-related choices; at certain levels, you'd gain a race/lineage-related choices. The choices need not even be feats in the way we currently look at them.

I'm not sure what exactly the answer is, but I'd like to see more opportunities to make choices. As the game currently stands, I don't see the point of creating new feats if a character doesn't have an opportunity to choose them.

6ENow! said:

Sorry, but this is a big problem for me... having another mechanic. shrug I've tried similar things, and while they do work it lacks the elegance I am personally looking for. I know it works well for you, you posted on it numerous times, and that's great, but I am still looking for something already there that just needs to be realized. Maybe it's a pipedream, who knows?

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No worries, every group is different. It is your loss after all, not mine.

I would still suggest you try it as it seems you are misunderstanding something. The whole reason my group ended up with this solution (instead of many others we have tried), is that it really is the same mechanic as HP, not another mechanic as you state. It really is a tweak that is "already there" as you stated, and it actually simplifies things as it gets rid of death saves (which is a "another" mechanic).

We've tried vitality or wound points, lingering injuries, slow healing, etc. and I agree with you that a big reason they failed for us is that they are different mechanic that didn't flow or required additional tracking, or just didn't give the feel we wanted. This system is simple, hits the right balance for us, and builds on the existing mechanic of HP. The only additional tracking is with critical hits. If that bothers you, have BHP come in only after you hit 0 HP. Then it is truly just a replacement for death saves.

Lanefan said:

Problem (across all editions but far worse in 3e-4e-5e): strictly turn-based cyclic initiative leads to unrealistic and sometimes stupid results e.g. two foes cannot by RAW simultaneously kill each other, or two allies cannot by RAW move together, or someone can't by RAW run into (or out of) an AoE area by mistake just as it goes off as a character's movement works like a mini-teleport on their init., etc. etc. Most importantly, strict turn-based cyclic init. plays hard against the idea of the chaotic fog of war and makes timing far too predictable.

Fix: re-do initiative from the ground up. Bring back the concept of segments in a round. Individual initiative as now but use a smaller die (d6 or d8), and allow ties. Re-roll every round. No stat-based init. roll modifiers of any kind. Each weapon or attack gets its own independent initiative thus if you attack twice in a round you roll two separate init. dice. Movement takes time and is tracked segment by segment such that if the lightning bolt goes off we can tell if you're potentially in its way or not. Do away with bonus actions as a thing, most of them e.g. off-hand weapon attacks become normal actions and get their own initiative each round. Etc.

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Sounds too fiddly to me. While I get your problems with the standard initiative system; I think they're overridden by the benefits of its simplicity. There is no real bookkeeping or cognitive load to worry about; which lets you focus on making combat feel exciting. Your system sounds like its designed to make combat more fluid; but I think it would instead make it feel more jerky.