D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

Maxperson said:

Psionicists were so important to Dark Sun that they did something never done in any other setting or PHB. They allowed demihumans to level without limit in that class. Yes, wild talents were all over. So were Psionicists. I get that to you they aren't important enough to be core for your game, but to the setting they are critical.

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They're important to maintain canonicity; they're not essential to maintain the overall tropes and themes of the setting. Canonicity is only a small part of what actually defines a setting.

TwoSix said:

They're important to maintain canonicity; they're not essential to maintain the overall tropes and themes of the setting. Canonicity is only a small part of what actually defines a setting.

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I disagree. The theme of the setting was not just prevalent psionics, but powerful and prevalent psionics, and the Psion(icist) is really the best way to represent that. A minor psionic subclass, spell here and there, or feat doesn't cut it.

Maxperson said:

I disagree. The theme of the setting was not just prevalent psionics, but powerful and prevalent psionics, and the Psion(icist) is really the best way to represent that. A minor psionic subclass, spell here and there, or feat doesn't cut it.

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And that's totally fine. You wouldn't like my Dark Sun, which has smaller psionically powered classes instead of a psion class, and makes numerous lore changes (no more Cleansing Wars). But I would disagree if you told me it wasn't Dark Sun; it has the same map, has sorcerer-kings in isolated city-states, defiling arcane magic, and a focus on gritty survival in an unforgiving desert. That's Dark Sun enough for me.

Maxperson said:

I disagree. The theme of the setting was not just prevalent psionics, but powerful and prevalent psionics, and the Psion(icist) is really the best way to represent that. A minor psionic subclass, spell here and there, or feat doesn't cut it.

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That's not what a theme is. Psionics is not a theme (much less the theme--seriously?!?), defiling magic is not a theme, sorcerer-kings and lack of metal and desert wastes are not themes. They are setting elements, which support the theme in various ways.

The theme of Dark Sun is a ravaged world sucked dry by the wanton abuse of its environment. Psionics elaborates on that; it shows how the inhabitants of Athas have adapted to scarcity and hardship. Deprived of all but the most primitive tools and weapons, they have found ways to use their own minds to compensate.

But nothing in that requires professional psions. Rather the opposite, in fact: The salient feature of psionics on Athas is its widespread amateur use. It's the "everyman" power, the answer of the masses to the elite wielders of magic. The typical Athasian psion is not a wise ancient master but a street urchin who can pick pockets from thirty feet away, or a farmer who can sense water deep below the desert surface. You can have the professionals if you want, but the wild talents are far more important.

ChaosOS said:

One of the reasons I wrote the OP was that while "Psionics", broadly speaking, are important to Dark Sun, Psionics is not the same as having a psion class. Psionic themed subclasses and monsters, plus a boon-style Wild Talent system, are far more important parts of psionics to the setting. For me, Psionics is that gladiator who "cheats" by telekinetically retrieving their disarmed weapon. Psionics is the Psurlon that lurks in sand street. "The masters of the way" are... not actually that important to the function and themes of the setting. Sorcerer Kings and their templars rule over the city states through arcane, defiling magic. Yes, they also had access to psionics, but in 5e terms that's just some pionic-themed spells like Mind Sliver or Telekenises or Synaptic Static.

Dark Sun has other themes that would be important to address - restrictions on races, reflavoring & reframing classes, survival rules - but those all seem very doable in a 5e XYZ's Atlas of Athas based on what they pulled off with Van Richten's

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To me the main need for the Psion(icists) class in Dark Sun is they take the forefront of supernatural effect makers from Wizards and Cleric and are unrestricted in Roleplay.

Basically Psions are the only big "mage" that isn't nerfed in fluff nor crunch. Psychic Warriors and Abberant Mind Sorcerers don't capture it fully.

Psion(icists) represents the adaption when traditional magic is weakened. When the Arcane is stigmatized, the Divine is restricted, and the Primal weaken, the Psionic, the Elemental, and the Martial strives.

It's not just Psionics. If you go the "just what exists and don't alter much" route, Dark Sun becomes a generic post apocalyptic swords and sword world.

But you arent changing the rules so it's really a generic post apocalyptic heroic fantasy with sorcerers in charge. Basic 80s Saturday morning cartoon. At that point just call it Third Earth and not Dark Sun.

It is not only the class, but literally hundreds of powers, the psionic feats, and the ideas from 3.5 the complete psionic. Why not the lurker as a rogue subclass? or the divine-mind for cleric. And the races, for example the blue, a goblin subrace.


The fraals were canon in AD&D 2nd Ed.






What if WotC publishes a new Power Tome, with psionic, martial maneuvers and vestige pact magic?

Dausuul said:

That's not what a theme is. Psionics is not a theme (much less the theme--seriously?!?), defiling magic is not a theme, sorcerer-kings and lack of metal and desert wastes are not themes. They are setting elements, which support the theme in various ways.

The theme of Dark Sun is a ravaged world sucked dry by the wanton abuse of its environment. Psionics elaborates on that; it shows how the inhabitants of Athas have adapted to scarcity and hardship. Deprived of all but the most primitive tools and weapons, they have found ways to use their own minds to compensate.

But nothing in that requires professional psions. Rather the opposite, in fact: The salient feature of psionics on Athas is its widespread amateur use. It's the "everyman" power, the answer of the masses to the elite wielders of magic. The typical Athasian psion is not a wise ancient master but a street urchin who can pick pockets from thirty feet away, or a farmer who can sense water deep below the desert surface. You can have the professionals if you want, but the wild talents are far more important.

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"Well, y'know, Eberron added in their little Magewright NPC class to represent how common Arcane Magic is, and there's feats and subclasses. So a 5e Eberron doesn't need Wizards!"

That's how your post reads, Dausuul.

Yes. Psionics is widespread in Dark Sun. Many monsters and characters have minor quantities of it because it's just -that- ubiquitous.

But there are Psionicists core to the setting. The idea of the Will and the Way being a potential path to power. Not just some one-off thing. Of characters who focus their minds into powerful weapons and become more than just "A Gladiator with a Psionic Trick"

Now you -could- be ridiculous and make a "Separate from Class" Psionic Progression. Or make psionic subclasses for every single class in the game and -call- them Psionicists...

But that would be up there with pulling Wizards and Sorcerers out of Eberron in favor of Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, and Magewright NPCs.

It wouldn't encapsulate what a Psionicist is, would take far more effort, and be incredibly frustrating to the players who actually want to play Psionicists rather than refluffed Wizards.

And Dark Sun? It would not be Dark Sun without Psionicists.

TwoSix said:

And that's totally fine. You wouldn't like my Dark Sun, which has smaller psionically powered classes instead of a psion class, and makes numerous lore changes (no more Cleansing Wars). But I would disagree if you told me it wasn't Dark Sun; it has the same map, has sorcerer-kings in isolated city-states, defiling arcane magic, and a focus on gritty survival in an unforgiving desert. That's Dark Sun enough for me.

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Yeah... Dark Sun enough for you... but not Dark Sun from TSR or WotC. Homebrew seriously altered Dark Sun. Not the full package.

If they put out a full package, it needs the Psionicist. Your table aside, the setting and the history call for it.

Steampunkette said:

"Well, y'know, Eberron added in their little Magewright NPC class to represent how common Arcane Magic is, and there's feats and subclasses. So a 5e Eberron doesn't need Wizards!"

That's how your post reads, Dausuul.

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If that's what you want to read into it, that's your business. Feel free to continue arguing with yourself.

Dausuul said:

If that's what you want to read into it, that's your business. Feel free to continue arguing with yourself.

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You do understand where we're coming from, though, right?

You may not consider Psionicists core to the idea of Dark Sun, but they were an important enough feature to that specific setting that not only were racial restrictions completely lifted on playing them, they released a whole second book specifically expanding Psionics, including Psionicist Options, for Dark Sun?

So core, in fact, that WotC decided they'd be releasing Dark Sun for 4e, but didn't do it until -after- they released the PHB3 so players could play Psions as soon as Dark Sun launched?

Yes. They -could- forgo Psionicists. They could also forgo the Sorcerer Kings as would be Dragons and just make them into petty lords of a given region. They could rewrite the setting to remove Defiling and instead say that it was -always- a desert world and the Veiled Alliance are delusional or believe in myths. They could erase the Cannibal Elves and just have elves be human nomads with pointy ears.

But. If the setting is going to be the full package, the whole of Dark Sun, it needs Psionicists.

The fact that there are other forms of Psionics that are widespread and shallow doesn't mean the deeper end of the Will and the Way can be discarded. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Ah. He blocked me while I was typing... figures.

Dausuul said:

That's not what a theme is. Psionics is not a theme (much less the theme--seriously?!?), defiling magic is not a theme, sorcerer-kings and lack of metal and desert wastes are not themes. They are setting elements, which support the theme in various ways.

The theme of Dark Sun is a ravaged world sucked dry by the wanton abuse of its environment. Psionics elaborates on that; it shows how the inhabitants of Athas have adapted to scarcity and hardship. Deprived of all but the most primitive tools and weapons, they have found ways to use their own minds to compensate.

But nothing in that requires professional psions. Rather the opposite, in fact: The salient feature of psionics on Athas is its widespread amateur use. It's the "everyman" power, the answer of the masses to the elite wielders of magic. The typical Athasian psion is not a wise ancient master but a street urchin who can pick pockets from thirty feet away, or a farmer who can sense water deep below the desert surface. You can have the professionals if you want, but the wild talents are far more important.

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No. Pervasive and powerful psionics is ALSO a theme of Dark Sun. It meets the definition of theme exactly. There are multiple themes that run through settings.