5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition
- Thread starter Cleon
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Cleon
Legend
That's a common problem with these "steal abilities from other creatures" monsters, they tend to end up over-complicated.
I'm inclined to put the Gu'en-Deeko on the back burner to see if some mental simmering will come up with some better ideas for their brain-eating and concentrate on finishing the Nandie-Ape and Nandie-Bear.
The Koddoelo only needs a Description, which shouldn't take long.
EDIT: Ideally we should aim to make the Gu'en-Deeko so it's relatively straightforward to run. For example, if we do a sample Gu'en-Deeko based on Thraaak then the DM won't have to figure out all the brain-eating stats on the fly, they can just use those.
If we have the time and inclination, we could provide another example - maybe a Gu'en-Deeko who's eaten a Bandit Captain for a martial variant who attacks with weapons rather than spells.
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Cleon
Legend
Don't care for the two /s in Stealthy Predator, I'd prefer either "rocky hills, forested badlands or jungle" or "rocky hills or jungle" for the habitat.
A nandie-bear fights with its bite and its claws, your update only has claw attacks.
If it had two claws attacks, each of which could rend, it could do 8d6+8 damage, which seems a bit high for the desired Challenge.
Oh, and the claws damage of 2d6 + 4 has an average of 11, not 7.
EDIT: Updated the Nandie-Bear Working Draft on Enworld to account for some of the above changes.
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Cleon
Legend
I'm thinking the Nandie-Bear's Haunting Howl should have some limit on frequency of use. Maybe a Recharge number [i.e. Howl (Recharge 5-6)] or a cool-down time (i.e. Howl (1/hour)]?
But the main question is do you want to honor the original's "fail the save and have fear of the howl engraved into your memories?" aspect.
If not, it can simply just cause fright for a minute.
For example, we could modify the terrifying bay of a Yeth Hound Thrall or the Frightful Presence of a Dragon:
Bay (1/Day). The yeth hound can howl, causing all creatures other than fiends that can hear within 300 feet to make a [DC ##] Wisdom saving throw. Those who fail are frightened for 1 minute. A creature frightened by this effect can make another saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success. A creature that successfully saves is immune to this yeth hound’s bay for 24 hours.
Frightful Presence. Each creature of the dragon’s choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon’s Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
If we do want to incorporate some lingering effect, the ability gets a lot more complicated.
Maybe something like:
Haunting Howl (Recharge 5-6). A nandie-bear's horrible call is loud and resonant, it can be heard up to one mile distant. Any animal that hears this howl will become skittish, as per the nandie-bear's Unsettling Aura ability.
All creatures within 300 feet other than nandie-apes and nandie-bears must succeed at a DC [12] Wisdom saving throw upon hearing the howl or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature who fails this save gains Disadvantage on subsequent saving throws against a nandie-bear's haunting howl. If such a creature succeeds on three successive saving throws against haunting howl, they conquer their fear, and from then on will not gain disadvantage should they fail their initial save against a howl. A frightened creature can make a DC [12] Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending its frightened condition on a success.
Nandie-apes can be frightened by haunting howl (as above), but unlike the standard frightened condition, the apes may willingly move towards the source of the howl, and their frightened state only gives them disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls against the nandie-bear.
If the nandie-bear rules a nandie-ape colony, its haunting howl also calls the colony's nandie-apes to come to its assistance. Typically, [1d4 nandie-apes will arrive per round for 1d3 + 3 rounds, for a total of between 4 and 24?] nandie-apes. If a nandie-bear is close to its nandie colony, 1d4 nandie-apes (or more) will arrive every round until the colony's entire population has turned up.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Yes that works - I like the "recharge on X" mechanic as more random than just "every 3 rounds" or whatever as adding some suspense via randomness.
The bottom haunting howl is good - 4-24 nandie-apes seems a reasonable number - substantial enough to be a problem but not huge.
Why is DC 12 in brackets - you thinking it might be better lower or higher? Maybe DC 10 as if hits all creatures could be a might overpowered?
Had missed bite by accident - added now - the 2d6+4 damage represents both claws as that seems the 5e way of doing things
Regarding its stealth - the folklore and 1e lore has it preferring darkness - so maybe make stealth Advantage on low light situations such as night-time.....?
Trying to rework description as follows:
The nandie-bear is a bulky and powerful ape-like creature that dwells in forested or rocky wilderness. Covered in shaggy black hair, it stands around 8-foot tall, though ambles around on four limbs more often than not. Its face has vaguely human-like features with baleful eyes and large jaws and teeth, hinting at its carnivorous diet.
It has developed a taste for human flesh, and at times may venture to pick off villagers or dwellers of isolated homesteads under the cover of darkness.
A nandie-bear invariably heads a colony of nandie-apes, where it lazes about while its subjects hunt and scavenge for it. It will generally only venture forth from the colony in the dead of night, conducting its forays alone. It may also lave the colony on occasion to answer the summons of its nandie-apes, though is always the last to respond.
The bottom haunting howl is good - 4-24 nandie-apes seems a reasonable number - substantial enough to be a problem but not huge.
Why is DC 12 in brackets - you thinking it might be better lower or higher? Maybe DC 10 as if hits all creatures could be a might overpowered?
Had missed bite by accident - added now - the 2d6+4 damage represents both claws as that seems the 5e way of doing things
Regarding its stealth - the folklore and 1e lore has it preferring darkness - so maybe make stealth Advantage on low light situations such as night-time.....?
Trying to rework description as follows:
The nandie-bear is a bulky and powerful ape-like creature that dwells in forested or rocky wilderness. Covered in shaggy black hair, it stands around 8-foot tall, though ambles around on four limbs more often than not. Its face has vaguely human-like features with baleful eyes and large jaws and teeth, hinting at its carnivorous diet.
It has developed a taste for human flesh, and at times may venture to pick off villagers or dwellers of isolated homesteads under the cover of darkness.
A nandie-bear invariably heads a colony of nandie-apes, where it lazes about while its subjects hunt and scavenge for it. It will generally only venture forth from the colony in the dead of night, conducting its forays alone. It may also lave the colony on occasion to answer the summons of its nandie-apes, though is always the last to respond.
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Cleon
Legend
I'm thinking we should modify the nandie-ape's Call to Arms to have similar numbers, how about:
Call to Arms. A nandie-ape can use its bonus action to make a chattering call. This gives it advantage on melee attack rolls against a creature if at least one of the nandie-ape's allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated.
In addition, any members of the nandie-ape's colony within earshot of Call to Arms (about 300 feet) will come to aid the nandie-ape. Typically, 1d4 nandie-apes will arrive per round for 1d4 + 1 rounds, for a total of between 2 and 20 nandie-apes. If a nandie-ape is close to its nandie colony, 1d4 nandie-apes (or more) will arrive every round until the colony's entire population has turned up.
If more than one nandie-ape uses Call to Arms the number of creatures that arrive does not increase.
For a colony Call to Arms, the smallest nandie colonies contain 10d4 (10 to 40) to 15d4 (15 to 60) nandie-apes; bigger colonies usually have between 10d4+5d6 (15 to 70) and 5d4+5d6+5d8 (15 to 90) apes; the largest colonies can have from 5d4+10d6+5d8 (20 to 120) up to 5d4+5d6+5d8+5d12 (20 to 150) nandies. Always roll the largest dice first when determining how many nandie-apes respond to a colony Call to Arms. For a 12d4+3d6 colony, 1d6 nandie-apes arrive for 3 rounds (1st to 3rd), followed by 1d4 apes for 12 rounds (4th to 15th).
Boss nandie-apes who hear the call always arrive last. A nandie-bear, if present, always turns up after every nandie-apes within range has arrived.
The number of nandie-apes in a colony includes any present when a Call to Arms starts. This may reduce the number of apes who can arrive in response to the call. For example: adventurers stumble upon the lair of a 10d4+10d6 colony and encounter 25 nandie-apes plus a boss nandie-ape. That's roughly equivalent to 8d6 nandies, so 10d4+2d6 apes remain to answer their colony Call to Arms.
Then I can add a "(see Nandie-Ape colony Call to Arms for details)" note to the Kerit's Haunting Howl to cover the colony-summoning howl.
Put the DC in brackets since we might decide to give it an arbitrary adjustment OR tweak the Charisma. I'm fine with DC 12. The original used a save vs. spells, which is one of the tougher saves in 1E.
I'll update Haunting Howl in the Nandie-Bear Working Draft.
Wouldn't bother. Panthers are nocturnal predators and they don't even get Advantage on Stealth! Plus, the Bear's got darkvision, which is reason enough to hunt at night when your victims can't see you coming.
I'm definitely thinking the Kerit should be Challenge 2. It's at least as dangerous as a Griffon.
The actual folklore doesn't describe them as resembling cavemen.
I'm wondering whether we should mix up the description to include some elements from other descriptions - the sloping backed hyena-like stance, chalicothere-like sickle claws and so on.
Perhaps these monstrosities are rather variable in appearance, each being a different chimera of various horrible beasts? We can use the apeman as the "sample description" but mention alternatives.
Regardless, we should work out the Koddoelo Description at the same time since the two tie together so closely.
Cleon
Legend
Hmm, I'm thinking that could be a lot more succinct. Maybe have the info about nandie-ape colony sizes in their Description section rather than the Call to Arms Special Trait?
Will need to think about it…
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
I like the idea of the nandie-bear having different attributes from its folklore - hence one version has reddish hair, and even the picture in WD18 has it on all fours. Maybe make it more demonic/aberrant or mutable? Its appearance changes with varying attributes?
Cleon
Legend
I'll hash something out.
Let's start with the Nandie-Ape, so far we've got:
…upon reflection, that "Chattering Mobs" is way too wordy.
and:
BTW here is revised Nandie-ape with first attempt at description
The Description in the latter transcribes as follows (with a couple of typos fixed):
Hmm… I don't think we need to say they are literally related to baboons.
Also don't care for them being carnivores - a hundred+ man sized carnivores would have difficulty finding enough to eat within an territory that's just a mile radius from their lair. Makes more sense if they're omnivores who prefer the taste of flesh.
Description
A koddoelo, commonly called a nandie-ape, resembles an oversized tailless baboon with mangy black-brown fur. They normally scamper on all fours but can walk and fight on their hind legs, standing around 5 feet tall on average. Male and female koddoelos are equal in size and status. Particularly large nandie-apes are called bosses (see Nandie-Ape Boss) and can exceed 6 feet in height. Nandie-ape colonies are usually led by boss nandies or a loathsome monster called a kerit or nandie-bear (see Nandie-Bear).
Nandie-apes are simian omnivores who inhabit rocky hills, thick forests and jungles. While they would rather eat meat, most make do with a mostly vegetarian diet supplemented by bugs, lizards, and other small animals.
Chattering Beasts. Nandie-apes are often heard before they're seen. They constantly screech and chatter at one another in a primitive language that humanoids call Kerit after the nandie-bear. Kerit is both a spoken language and a sign-language, but can only convey simple concepts of a few words. Nandie-apes prefer to speak and gesture at the same time, but nandie-bears only use the sign-language form of Kerit.
The most notable sound in Kerit is the summoning screech of a nandie-ape's Call to Arms, which corresponds to the terrifying cry of a nandie-bear's Haunting Howl. A character proficient in Nature can identify the purpose of this call with a DC 12 Nature check.
Kerit has numerous dialects, and each colony of nandie-apes has a unique summoning screech. A koddoelo will recognize the Call to Arms of nandie-apes from another colony as being a rival or enemy but can still communicate crude concepts with the simian stranger, such as "go away!"
Chaotic Mobs. A koddoelo is an innately chaotic creature. Groups of nandie-apes are unruly bickering mobs, not a disciplined pack like wolves live in. A powerful or charismatic leader can force some temporary cohesion upon a group, but this requires constant enforcement. Arguments and fights are frequent, often triggered when one ape insults or steal from another. Disputes inside a koddoelo colony are always between individuals, only a pair-bonded partner will help a nandie-ape fight another colony member (see Loyal Pairs).
Screeching Colonies. Despite their chaotic temperament, nandie-apes are highly gregarious creatures with strong social instincts. They live in colonies that range in size from 10 to 150 adults. The colony will have a lair in a cave or abandoned building.
The size of a colony is measured in dice; the smallest nandie colonies contain 10d4 (10 to 40) to 15d4 (15 to 60) nandie-apes; bigger colonies usually have between 10d4+5d6 (15 to 70) and 5d4+5d6+5d8 (15 to 90) apes; the largest colonies can have from 5d4+10d6+5d8 (20 to 120) up to 5d4+5d6+5d8+5d12 (20 to 150) nandies.
Each colony will be led by 1 to 5 nandie-ape bosses or 1 nandie-bear; the commonest leadership is a mated pair of boss nandies. Colonies ruled by a nandie-bear never have bosses, since nandie-bears tolerate no challengers to their tyranny.
Small groups of nandie-apes numbering a few dice (typically 2d6) will be scattered throughout the colony's territory. If encountered, nandie-apes will either ignore or stare at intruders and then continue about their business, or issue a Call to Arms and follow or attack them. The lair will contain a sizeable group of nandie-apes, perhaps a quarter of the dice of the colony, who will always Call to Arms to gather the rest of the nandie-apes.
Loyal Pairs. A koddoelo can form an extremely close bond with one other creature. They are extremely loyal to their pair-bonded partner and may defend them fiercely. The bonded partner is usually the nandie-ape's mate, but a koddoelo can form platonic pair-bonds with a creature they have no reproductive interest in. Even mated pair-bonds are not necessarily sexually exclusive; bonded koddoelos often have harems or affairs with other nandie-apes. Pair-bonds tend to only be broken by death, betrayal or sustained neglect. Showing another creature more attention than the bonded-partner is likely to provoke a jealous outburst though.
If a nandie-ape is raised from a young age, with proper training they can form a pair-bond with their owner and become an extremely devoted pet and fierce watchape. They will still be mischievous due to their chaotic alignment. Trained nandie-apes will not know Kerit or be able to use Call to Arms, since that requires an upbringing in a koddoelo colony.
(Originally named Nandie; appeared in White Dwarf Magazine #18 (Apr/May 1980) as part of "The Halls of Tizun Thane" by Albie Fiore.)
Here's a trimmed down version accounting for the above Description.
Call to Arms. A nandie-ape can use its bonus action to make screeching calls. This gives it advantage on melee attack rolls against a creature if at least one of the nandie-ape's allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated.
In addition, any members of the nandie-ape's colony within earshot of Call to Arms (about 300 feet) will come to aid the nandie-ape. Typically, 1d4 nandie-apes will arrive per round for 1d3 + 1 rounds, for a total of between 2 and 16 nandie-apes. (alternatively, use 1d6 per round for 1d4 rounds; 1d8 per round for 1d3 rounds; or 1d12 per round for 1d2 rounds)
If a nandie-ape is close to its colony, one dice worth of nandie-apes will arrive every round until the colony's entire population is accounted for. The largest available dice arrive first (see Screeching Colonies in Description).
If more than one nandie-ape makes a Call to Arms, the number of creatures that arrive does not increase.
Boss nandie-apes who hear a Call to Arms always arrive last. If a nandie-bear is within earshot, it arrives after all available nandie-apes have turned up.
Should a nandie-ape hear multiple summoning calls it gives priority to a nandie-bear's Haunting Howl, otherwise it responds to the loudest Call to Arms it hears.
Example: A nandie colony contains 10d4 + 10d6 nandie-apes and three nandie-ape bosses. A party of adventurers encounter a foraging patrol of 2d6 nandie-apes and fight them; the patrol makes a Call to Arms and rolls 3, so 3d4 apes answer the call over 3 rounds of combat. This leaves 7d4 + 8d6 unaccounted for.
The adventurers continue and discover 5d6 nandie-apes plus a mated pair of bosses in the colony's lair, who immediately Call to Arms. This leaves 7d4 + 3d6 nandie-apes and 1 boss unaccounted for. Over eleven rounds of screeching conflict, 1d6 ape reinforcements will arrive each round for three rounds (3d6), followed by 1d4 apes per round for seven rounds (7d4), and finally a single boss ape on the last round.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
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