5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[Cleon]

I've updated the Shadow Dancer Enworld post to what I hope is the final version.

Guess we should get the Nandie-Apes Description sorted out next so we can sign off on those.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Right - I renamed the critter "Shadowdancer", which seems to be fine. Went with speed 50 ft as you suggested so the DnDbeyond version looks like the final version above. Was just looking for an image before publishing but we're there otherwise...

 

[Cleon]

Right - I renamed the critter "Shadowdancer", which seems to be fine. Went with speed 50 ft as you suggested so the DnDbeyond version looks like the final version above. Was just looking for an image before publishing but we're there otherwise...

Yes, I think we're done with the Dancer.

I guess I should rename the Enworld version to Shadowdancer just for the sake of consistency…

…and I'll need to change every "shadow dancer" in the text to "shadowdancer" while I'm at it.

…plus the credit will need a mention of it's original name.

…done!

I'll update the Indexes name to Shadowdancer once we've got a link to the D&D Beyond version.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Yes, I think we're done with the Dancer.

I guess I should rename the Enworld version to Shadowdancer just for the sake of consistency…

…and I'll need to change every "shadow dancer" in the text to "shadowdancer" while I'm at it.

…plus the credit will need a mention of it's original name.

…done!

I'll update the Indexes name to Shadowdancer once we've got a link to the D&D Beyond version.

O-kay - now published Here

 

[Casimir Liber]

In the flurry of replies I missed your first post on the gu'en deeko. I must say I like this monster as providing something unique to the range of monsters used.

I agree the permanent gain of 1 hp is tricky - maybe it only gains a hp if the critter it eats has more original hp than it? That would cap it pretty quickly....?

The original has its "consumed and given" spells as one-offs (I guess like a spell scroll or something), which is a way of limiting its power. i.e. it doesn't have slots as such, they just mentally evaporate after being cast. Maybe spells come as a "package" from the most recent victim - when it eats a new brain, old "package" of spells is erased by new "package" of spells if new victim is a spellcaster. i.e. can only have one array of spells at a time.

Skills - applicable unless fundamentally incompatible - e.g. can't waterbreathe or fly.

 

[Cleon]

I agree the permanent gain of 1 hp is tricky - maybe it only gains a hp if the critter it eats has more original hp than it? That would cap it pretty quickly....?

That would mean if it brain-ate a fragile but powerful creature like, say, a wizard, it would not gain any hit points. It would seem better to base it off the Challenge or Level of the victim, but cap it at the max hit points it can roll on its HD.

For example, "If a gu'en-deeko eats the brain of a victim of [challenge/level?] # or higher its maximum hit points increase by 1 for every [challenge/level?] above #–1, it cannot gain more hit points than could be rolled on its Hit Dice (6d8+18 has a maximum roll of 66 hp)."

The gu'en-deeko in the adventure, Thraaak, has 5+12 HD listed, so it's eaten twelve levels of victims as it gains 1 hp/level on "devouring a human brain" plus their knowledge and any skills and abilities they had.

The "human brain" presumably means "humanoid brain" in 5E terms, since Thraaak has the abilities of a 2nd level thief and a dwarf as well as Tizun Thane's spells.

He also ate an assassin's brains which caused him to turn against his master, and might have eaten the brains of other enemies of Tizun Thane.

However, he can't have eaten that many of them!

Thraak had two 3rd-level, two 2nd-level and three 1st-level magic-user spells left over from eating Tizun Thane's brain.

He'd need to be at least a 6th-level MU to have those spells.

If we assume that Thaaak's other abilities were from a 2nd-level dwarf thief (since the dwarf wasn't given a class or level) and that the assassin he'd eaten was only 1st level (being a patsy), he'd have three hit points from the 3 levels in those brains, which leaves 9 levels to account for.

That means Tizun must have been between 6th and 9th level. A 1E AD&D magic-user of that level likely only had 15-22 hp if their Constitution and Hit Dice rolls aren't exceptional.

The original has its "consumed and given" spells as one-offs (I guess like a spell scroll or something), which is a way of limiting its power. i.e. it doesn't have slots as such, they just mentally evaporate after being cast.

Yes, I think I mentioned somewhere before the original only gained spells as 1-use.

I'm just not fond of that, if only because it may make sequential encounters push-overs.

Say, a party of adventures fights a gu'en-deeko who chucks a couple of spells at them, prompting the party to retreat. When the adventurers return, prepared to battle a spell-using monster, the gu'en-deeko will be 2 spells less powerful than their first encounter and easier to defeat.

I'd rather the gu'en-deeko keeps its spellcasting abilities like it keeps the abilities of other classes it has brain-eaten.

If the gu'en-deeko had eaten a class with innate spellcasting rather than memorized spellcasting, its spells wouldn't evaporate. Plus I'd like a gu'en-deeko "mage" to pose as long-term a threat as a gu'en-deeko "warrior" who won't permanently lose its offensive abilities upon using them.

Maybe spells come as a "package" from the most recent victim - when it eats a new brain, old "package" of spells is erased by new "package" of spells if new victim is a spellcaster. i.e. can only have one array of spells at a time.

If it worked like that, a gu'en-deeko could eat an archmage and become a 16th-level wizard, but then eat an apprentice and drop to a 1st-level wizard.

I was thinking something like this:

• A gu'en-deeko gains proficiency in any skills possessed by a humanoid whose brain it eats.
• A gu'en-deeko gains the memories, knowledge-based racial traits and languages of any humanoid whose brain it eats but does not gain any physiological traits of the humanoid's race. For example, if it ate a dwarf it would gain Dwarven Combat Training, Tool Proficiency, Stonecunning and Languages, but it would not gain a dwarf's Ability Score Increase, Size, Speed, Darkvision or Dwarven Resilience.
• In addition, a gu'en-deeko gains the class abilities of any humanoids of level # or lower whose brains it eats. These abilities never stack, if it gains multiple abilities only the highest level one applies. For example, if it ate the brains of a 2nd-level cleric, a 3rd-level bard, and a 3rd-level druid a gu'en-deeko gains 3rd-level Spellcasting, not three separate sets of Spellcasting (see below for how Gu'en-Deeko spells function).
   There are some class abilities that cannot be obtained by devouring brains, such as a warlock's Pact abilities: a gu'en-deeko lacks the godlike patron required for Pact Magic, Pact Boon, Otherworldly Patron, Mystic Arcanum and Eldritch Master abilities, although it can gain a warlock's Eldritch Invocations and Ability Score Improvement abilities. Other classes are left to the DM's discretion.
• If a gu'en-deeko eats the brain of a humanoid of level #+1 or higher, if gains the class abilities of that humanoid until it eats the brain of another humanoid of the same level or higher. If that happens, the gu'en-deeko gains the class abilities of the new brain and the class abilities it gained from the previous high-level brain are reduced to a #-level character of that class.
• If a gu'en-deeko eats the brain of a humanoid whose level exceeds its [6] Hit Dice, the gu'en-deeko goes insane and believes itself to actually be the individual whose brain it ate, despite any evidence to the contrary.
• [Stuff about how its spellcasting works. Basically I'm thinking it becomes an X-level sorcerer-style spellcaster (i.e. Cha-based) who can swap in new "spells learned" from brains it eats, and if it eats more spells than it can learn it can cast the excess as 1-use spells, which still expends spell slots.]

Does that sound OK to you?

 

[Cleon]

 There are some class abilities that cannot be obtained by devouring brains, such as a warlock's Pact abilities: a gu'en-deeko lacks the godlike patron required for Pact Magic, Pact Boon, Otherworldly Patron, Mystic Arcanum and Eldritch Master abilities, although it can gain a warlock's Eldritch Invocations and Ability Score Improvement abilities. Other classes are left to the DM's discretion.

Upon reflection, since the original monster could get any class ability by eating a humanoid brain I'm tempted to include Pact abilities, with caveats:

• In addition, a gu'en-deeko gains the class abilities of any humanoids of level # or lower whose brains it eats. These abilities never stack, if it gains multiple abilities only the highest level one applies. For example, if it ate the brains of a 2nd-level cleric, a 3rd-level bard, and a 3rd-level druid a gu'en-deeko gains 3rd-level Spellcasting, not three separate sets of Spellcasting (see below for how Gu'en-Deeko spells function). It could, in theory, gain multiple abilities that use spells provided they are different types of magic-use. For example, it could possess the Innate Spellcasting from multiple sources, such as a Drow Elf and a Svirfneblin.
   At the DM's discretion, some class abilities cannot be obtained just by devouring brains. For example, a gu'en-deeko could, in theory, possess both Spellcasting and a warlock's Pact abilities (Pact Magic, Pact Boon, Otherworldly Patron, Mystic Arcanum & Eldritch Master). However, the godlike patron who grants those abilities must agree to strike a warlock's bargain with the gu'en-deeko.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Okay - looks interesting (I had to re-read this to digest) - I like this challenge to make it playable logically (thinking about it, I'm not sure that Albie Fiore gave it this much thought before creating it for the adventure, but I see the potential of some really cool monster here - and also I liked iZombie which had a similar premise....)

- I like what you've done to quantify it for 5e and make it playable and think it's the right way to adapt it.

- agree about allowing a pact but is up to discretion of patron how to proceed - which could make for some interesting plot play on part of DM in adventure creating and allow some discretion for customizing challenge of monster to players.

- with the eating of a new brain of a humanoid with a level higher than an older brain, you're saying the older skills "fade" by a level...? Might be a good way to have them slowly disappear...?

- maybe rather than automatically go insane, make it a chance? A DC 10 WIS check per brain of victim 7th level or higher? Or DC 10+1/lvl above
7th? If forgone conlusion, the ape might never eat a strong victim, but if a chance then it might risk it for power....?

 

[Cleon]

- with the eating of a new brain of a humanoid with a level higher than an older brain, you're saying the older skills "fade" by a level...? Might be a good way to have them slowly disappear...?

No, it'll "fade" to a set lower level not by 1 level. If we have it lose 1 level per week or something it would be a nightmare to keep track.

My basic idea was it can any number of abilities from low-level brains but only one set of abilities from a high-level brain.

Hadn't quite decided on the levels when I wrote it, but I'm thinking 1st to 3rd level for the former, so 4th+ for the higher level brain.

So, if it eats multiple brains from humanoids of 4th+ level it gains all the class abilities of the class with the most levels (with the most recent brain winning ties), but it can only gain class abilities up to 3rd-level from other brains (the gu'en-deeko still gains all the Skill proficiencies that 4th+ brains have regardless of whether they are the highest level or not, which may more Skills than a 3rd-level character would have.)

I chose 4th level as the cut-off point because that's where classes start to grant Ability Score Advancements, and it didn't seem prudent to allow the gu'en-deeko to get that from multiple brains.

It would also make sense it the "increased maximum hit points" ability kicks in at 4th-level too, so it gets a permanent +1 hp for a 4th-level brain, +3 for a 6th-level and so on.

- maybe rather than automatically go insane, make it a chance? A DC 10 WIS check per brain of victim 7th level or higher? Or DC 10+1/lvl above
7th? If forgone conlusion, the ape might never eat a strong victim, but if a chance then it might risk it for power....?

Well maybe gu'en-deekos are so driven to eat brains they don't care if it'll drive them mad?

However, a save is fine by me. Although if we allow a save I'd have it "kick in" at the Gu'en-Deeko's Hit Dice of 6 rather than more than the monster's HD.

I'd make it class-level and mental ability score based.

Maybe set the DC to 10 plus the "brain donor's" proficiency bonus plus its highest mental ability bonus? So a 6th-level Druid requires, say, a DC 14 save (10 + 2 Proficiency +2 Wis), a Captain a DC 15 save (10 + 2 proficiency +3 Cha) and an Archmage a DC 19 save (10 +4 proficiency +5 Int).

I'm tempted to have a risk of personality-overlay from any brain of 4th+ level, but with a lower DC?

We could have it level-based I guess, but 10+level seems a bit too high and I'd like a mental ability in there.

If the DC were, say, 6 plus level plus highest mental ability modifiers that'd make a standard 4th-level Druid DC 12 (6 + 4 + 2) and an Archmage DC 29! (6 + 18 + 5).

It's more usual to have it based on Proficiency Bonus though, especially as many NPC humanoids don't have levels listed, such as the aforementioned Captain, who's 10d8+20 hit points suggest 10th-level, the three attacks per round would require an 11th+ level if a fighter, but the piddling Challenge 4 suggests only 4th level or so.

So perhaps use the standard spell formula of 8 + proficiency + ability bonus for 4th+ level brains, but use 150% the proficiency bonus if the Challenge/Class Level equals or exceeds the Gu'en-Deeko's Challenge/Hit Dice/Highest Class Level?

I'm also thinking it'd be desirable to to stat up a sample of a brain-boosted Gu'en-Deeko and it seems appropriate if it's a "Gu'en-Deeko Mage" who has brain-devoured a 6th-level wizard and a 2nd-level dwarf thief.

Then, purely by coincidence, the creature would approximately match Thaaak's brain-abilities from The Halls of Tizun Thane.

 

[Casimir Liber]

I like basing the (variable) DC save on proficiency + Cha is cool.

Reading this is pretty complex - am I waiting for you to reformulate now? Or you waiting for more feedback from me...?