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D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

Asisreo

Patron Badass
It's possible to do this but shouldn't it then be:

Fighter
Combat 10
Exploration 1
Social 1

Wizard
Combat 5
Exploration 5
Social 5

But it's more like

Wizard
Combat 8 (some would argue 10 with the ability to do other things besides lower HP)
Exploration 8
Social 5
While I understand you're trying to illustrate your point, you're applying quantitative values to a qualitative position. And it's important because I disagree that fighters are 1's in areas other than combat. Sure, not as high as wizards on-average, but the fighter simply does have exploration/social abilities built into the class.

I won't try to enumerate them, but I'd say where the wizard is great at exploration, the fighter is decent. Decent enough to make it through an adventure by themselves (adjusting for resource management) and even gain the spotlight once or twice in exploration. Social-wise, I'd say they're okay. But I also wouldn't say Wizards are spectacular in combat without a very experienced and smart pilot.
I wasn't talking about redesigning the Fighter here though, I was talking about a new mythic martial class with a mandate of 1-8 level = interesting tactical choices and variety of stuff to contribute to combat, not just decreasing HP + some social and /or exploration niche
Assuming this designer gets the core rules to work with, there really isn't as many tactical decision points in combat that I think you believe there to be.

First, remember that the game is not inherently grid-based. It's distance-based and grid-friendly, but there is the expectation first that you can play an entire campaign with no grid. So abilities that require complex tracking of grid information outside basic distance isn't really compatible. Like things that reference relative elevation.

There's conditions, but many martials have abilities that impose conditions from battlemasters to monks and even barbarians.

You can try to manipulate stats, but that also exists, but in a more simplified manner where rather than reducing strength, you can make a character have disadvantage to strength checks and saves. Not exactly the same, but the difference is intentional for the sake of simplicity.

Maybe you have a problem with the restrictive equipment catalog, which is a bit understandable but magic items greatly expand how equipment is considered. Such that a +0 dagger still has a decent use compared to a mundane greatsword on a strength fighter.
 

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If you use the DMG object rules and assume that the portcullis is the most resilient option (large, resilient), the fighter can tear through it before a round is over.
When I think of a portcullis I think of one at a castle gate. And those are huge - which means that they do not have any sort of defined hit points. If we're talking about an internal wooden one covering a corridor yes you are right. Fighters can kick ordinary doors open whether they close horizontally or vertically. A portcullis is basically just a reinforced door (and some are huge) that raises vertically by means of a pulley specifically so it can't be opened unless you have access to the winch or have a lot of people and a lot of time.
It's explicitly possible to bend portcullis bars in the DMG,
Where does it say that? And how are you going to bend portcullis bars? Below's a picture of a Portcullis (via Wikipedia) and looking at it I'm not sure what bending the bars even means especially as they are attached at each cross-section.
1662123801061.png


And yes, this is a wooden portcullis that a strength cleric should be able to render into kindling given enough time.
so if the DM calls for a strength check, the fighter can "take20" and get as high as a DC 28. Not only without magic assistance, but with a straight strength check with no skills/tools.
No they can't. Take 20 is not a rule in D&D 5e. (Or 4e).
Or, if they simply want to lift it, then as long as the weight of the portcullis is less than 600lbs, the fighter can lift it easily with no ability check.
This is precisely why portcullises are heavy. If it's known that very few people can lift in excess of 600lbs then I'd expect a reasonable portcullis to weigh upwards of 750lbs. More if Goliaths are around. They aren't designed to make things easy for the fighter - quite the reverse. And as they are lifted by a winch and pulley weight doesn't matter that much.
 

As the primary damage dealer, the Fighter character should lead the party,
« hey you the wizard, you gonna teleport us there »
« you the rogue, stop looking at loot, and go scout the next room »
And tell the cleric, « if your god can finally help us, I will smash this mighty demon! »
As the worst explorer and worst socialite the fighter should be the last person to lead the party.
« hey you the fighter. get stuffed. we'll teleport based on the nearest safe place to get to where we want to go as agreed by the wizard who understands how teleportation works and the ranger who understands how to get where we are going »
« you the fighter. Shut your yap and stop alerting everyone. instead go stand in the corner quietly so the clanking of your armour doesn't give us away »
And tell the fighter, « if you do not do the only thing you contribute to the party then say goodbye to your chance of getting healed - or to any other party hiring a fighter that tries to hold them hostage rather than do their one job »

The fighter, as the person who contributes least to the party in exploration should not be the person leading the party's exploration. The same with the social plans. And in combat? Unless they are an explicitly tactical fighter they've got enough to deal with with in melee. The shotcaller should be one of the back liners who is able to see the entire battlefield more clearly.

Now some fighters are going to end up as leaders despite their class. But ones that behave like jerks in the way you describe aren't going to lead - and are probably going to end up in a party of one.
 

The classic role play for a fighter is the fighting.
A fighter look after ennemies, challenge them, fight them, win, take the cup and the glory.
Once this is well established, the wizard is just there to give help on knowledge and magic tricks, the rogue do the scout and some dirty work, the bard make the ambiance and bring some favors. In need the cleric can pray for us, but overall they all work for my victory and glory.
A player may find many variant role play for his character but I don’t see why a Fighter player should feel undermine in any social or exploration encounter.
 

Shadowedeyes

Adventurer
I reject the hypothesis that balanced is "better"

4E was more balanced than 5E. There is no doubt about it, yet 5E is VASTLY more popular.

If balance was a good thing, why did 4E fail? Why is it the numbers who prefer 4E to 5E very small even among the grognards that played both?

We should try to make the game enjoyable, not balanced and WOTC has done that in spades with this edition. I think the lack of balance and putting each class in the place that makes sense is a small part of that popularity. Affirmitive action to boost the weak classes will not make the game better, it will be going backwards.
You are making an assumption that balance was the reason 4e failed. While I'm not really interested in getting into an edition war, I'll briefly say that the most numerous complaint I've seen on 4e is that the feel of how the classes played made the game not feel like D&D. That is different than saying balanced classes was the problem. So, perhaps the problem was the approach, not the desired outcome?

Regardless, I agree that the goal is to make the game enjoyable. I just disagree with your assertion that intentionally hampering the fighter and boosting the wizard actually helps to reach that goal.
 

As the worst explorer and worst socialite the fighter should be the last person to lead the party.
« hey you the fighter. get stuffed. we'll teleport based on the nearest safe place to get to where we want to go as agreed by the wizard who understands how teleportation works and the ranger who understands how to get where we are going »
« you the fighter. Shut your yap and stop alerting everyone. instead go stand in the corner quietly so the clanking of your armour doesn't give us away »
And tell the fighter, « if you do not do the only thing you contribute to the party then say goodbye to your chance of getting healed - or to any other party hiring a fighter that tries to hold them hostage rather than do their one job »

The fighter, as the person who contributes least to the party in exploration should not be the person leading the party's exploration. The same with the social plans. And in combat? Unless they are an explicitly tactical fighter they've got enough to deal with with in melee. The shotcaller should be one of the back liners who is able to see the entire battlefield more clearly.

Now some fighters are going to end up as leaders despite their class. But ones that behave like jerks in the way you describe aren't going to lead - and are probably going to end up in a party of one.
It is not because a character got +12 in persuade skill and roll 25, that the character contribute very much in a social encounter. He can be a simple dice roller. Any other character present can make the real fun and meaning of the encounter regardless of his skill bonus or any other abilities.
 

The classic role play for a fighter is the fighting.
A fighter look after ennemies, challenge them, fight them, win, take the cup and the glory.
Once this is well established, the wizard is just there to give help on knowledge and magic tricks, the rogue do the scout and some dirty work, the bard make the ambiance and bring some favors. In need the cleric can pray for us, but overall they all work for my victory and glory.
A player may find many variant role play for his character but I don’t see why a Fighter player should feel undermine in any social or exploration encounter.
All of which makes the fighter a legend in their own mind.

Fighters are solid in combat but they are more reliant on other classes than any other class is on allies. Wizards, as has been pointed out, can do massive damage against hordes - and can scout and get people there. Rogues can get where they are going, charm their way out of trouble, and assassinate. Clerics can tank, heal, do significant damage. The fighter outside combat is a glorified commoner.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
A PWK ability that is usable one per day isn't much in terms of combat power (the fighter could output that same damage in a relatively short window anyway). It's the "wow factor" of not having to do so.
That "wow factor" is simply flavor, though. As long as I'm holding my weapon, I could flavor my fighter to stare at the enemy until they're chopped to pieces and it doesn't change anything mechanically. While that's an extreme example, there's certainly been characters with prosthetic blades that are reflavored swords-in-hand or assassin's creed blades that are reflavored daggers.

And there's no reason why it can't transition from level 1 characters swinging a sword while level 20 characters slicing an enemy without making direct contact as long as the rules were still appied.
Regarding taking 20, that doesn't exist in 5e.
In name, no. But in effect, the DMG says that rather than a character constantly re-rolling a check that has no consequence on failure, they automatically succeed at the cost of ten times how long it would normally take, so long as the task is possible.

So, again, DM fiat, which is not ubiquitous from table to table. I can take the same fighter to the same adventure at three different tables and get three different results. One might let me lift the porticulis automatically. One might make me roll for it. One might decide that it weighs a ton and not permit me to even make the attempt. Spells work without fiat. Why can't the fighter have features that work without fiat?
Because all characters must use DM fiat regardless of features. A DM can say your spell simply doesn't work or works differently than you expect and not owe you an explanation. And still be perfectly within RAW, non-hostile, and actually consistent with their ruling.

You can cast Alter Self and NPC's still recognize you without a roll simply because they recognize your character's speech patterns so well.

You can cast invisibility and a thug still sees you because a DM rules invisibility is more like a Halo cloaking device than a Harry Potter cloak.

You can cast comprehend language and not understand a single word from a dwarven NPC because they use so much slang the literal interpretation is nonsense.

The notion that spells are infallible and not DM fiat is fundamentally flawed because a DM can still interpret it's consequences however they see fit.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I do wish the Fighter would get their leadership abilities back in some form. Unfortunately, over the years, the player base has rejected henchmen and followers, base building, and most passive bonuses handed out to the party like the 3.5 Marshall.

I mean, sure, a few subclasses touch on this in minor ways, but it'd be nice for it to be a core class ability. But I also want their saving throw dominance back...

As for Wizards, you ever notice how Wizards end up in advisory or important leadership positions a lot in official campaign settings?
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
A death attack with no save. This is the easiest one (and also the one you seem to have skipped over addressing). The fighter, rather than having to hack through the entire pool of ablative HP, gets an ability that lets them skip to the front of the line. Easily flavored as stabbing a creature in the heart or chopping off its head, which is obviously something that the guy who is best at fighting ought to be able to do.
I could see something like this akin to Power Word Kill, where a tier 4 fighter could kill finish off a creature with 100 hp or less.

Or, something earlier but affecting a lower hit point threshold.

Tearing through a porticulis like it were made of paper. Okay, I'll grant that my description gave this a superheroic feel, but that's obviously not necessary. The fighter grabs a two handed weapon, and using his exceptional ability to assess his surroundings, determines the optimal point to strike the porticulis, rending an opening. Exceptional? Yes. Superhuman? No. I've seen my buddy pull off similar stunts and he's a carpenter (in other words, not a warrior of legend).
AC 19, Large Resilient Object so 27 HP.

Greatsword and STR 20 averages 12 damage. Narratively, you could describe the two (or three depending on level) attack via Extra Attack as a "single blow", where the cumulative damage was enough to render the portcullis open.

Or, perhaps it was a use of GWM and a natural 20? Then the average damage would be 29, enough to rend it open with a single stroke.

Making a regiment of soldiers back down with a glare? This is classic stuff drawn from stories. It's about presence, which real people do possess. Intimidation is not a super power. And again, no, it does not count as part of the class if it's done via DM fiat. The wizard can route the regiment by casting Fear. The fighter can't even give the soldiers pause (despite being an alleged warrior of legend).
This is an issue with RPGs IMO. DMs often run creatures as they have no fear of death, no concept of mortality. And players often run their PCs as the same, with some misguided belief they are invincible or that the DM would never put them against a challenge they can't defeat (or at least have a reasonable chance of it).

So, in this scenario, each individual soldier should know the following:

1. That legendary fighter will kill them.
2. Working together, they might defeat the legend, but some if not many will die as well.

Thus, the question becomes, who would want to lead the fight against the legend, knowing they will likely be the first to die.

That is the intimidation that legendary fighter can bring to bear, through sheer force of personality and threat of death. At lower levels, this could mimic the cause fear spell, and at higher levels the fear spell. Similarly, it might manifest as a version of command.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying this allows the fighter to "cast these spells", simply that such features for a fighter could have similar effect.

When you reach 11th level, your ability to project your dominance over other manifests as an aura around you. As an action, you can issue challenge or request. All creatures within 30 feet that can hear and understand you must make a Wisdom saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. You can choose one of the following effects for all the creatures who fail the saving throw:

  • Command: the creatures must obey one command you issue them and act to complete the command, provided it does not endanger them. The command must be brief and accomplished within 1 minute.
  • Fear: the creatures are frightened for 1 minute as long as they can see you.

Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

In this scenario, the soldiers fail their saving throw (made as a group check) and are cowed by the legendary fighter.
 

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