D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The point was more, if it can be balanced at 1-5 then the same balance paradigm there can be mostly extended to higher levels.

The problem is that the amount of growth martials get from level 6-20 and casters get from level 6-20 is extremely different.

As a thought experiment. Imagine a fighter that got an extra attack every other level past level 5. Total of 9 extra attacks at level 20, unlimited uses if indominatble, action surge and second wind. No new abilities given - just bigger numbers/more uses. Fighter is still as mundane as he ever was, yet likely overshadows all other classes now, albeit not in every part of the game.
"Number go up" as the prime metric of improvement has always been the fighter's biggest issue in official D&D (outside of the completely different from everything before and since 4e). Thank goodness Level Up fixed this!
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
You know, that's a good point. People are arguing that humans on Faerun have ambient magic that allows them to do things like ignore gravity and shrug off swords nonmagically, how many would accept humans with natural hair of blue, pink or purple? Skin of gold, pearl or starlight? Eyes of yellow, red or pure white? No explanation, no cosmetics, no magic. Just born that way.
Legitimate question, do people NOT do that in their games? That's been normal in my games for decades.

In my games, people of "pure races" are a very small minority; almost every human character (and half-elf, half-dwarf, halfling, etc) in the setting has several other races in their lineage. Every "human" has a little elf blood, dwarf blood, orc blood, some planar flavor, etc.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Legitimate question, do people NOT do that in their games? That's been normal in my games for decades.

In my games, people of "pure races" are a very small minority; almost every human character (and half-elf, half-dwarf, halfling, etc) in the setting has several other races in their lineage. Every "human" has a little elf blood, dwarf blood, orc blood, some planar flavor, etc.
You'd be amazed how many DMs are sticklers for races that fall within the normal bounds of appearance. Not just humans, mind you, but other races fall into similar parameters. Just go on Reddit and search for discussions about tiefling skin color!
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Yes, using "human" to describe a fantasy race in D&D is probably one of the great mistakes. It brings a lot of inherent baggage to the game when we have to say "humans are just like us and are non-special" when every other species is defined by being special in a way humans are not, yet somehow, we have to assume that non-special humans dominate the world as opposed to some abjectly superior species.

It's especially galling when the true special trait of humans is that they can be part everything else, even if some settings state that their humans are actually the descendants of Earth humans who were somehow Isekai'd to a magical world to coexist with other species that should, genetically, have nothing in common with them...
the 'humans aren't special, they're the baseline' was probably much more effective when all the other species were actually built on a model of 'strength and a weakness', no your human doesn't have enhanced senses, is resistant to poison or can create illusions and talk to animals but at the same time you're not super frail, a terrible conversationalist or 2ft tall.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Legitimate question, do people NOT do that in their games? That's been normal in my games for decades.

In my games, people of "pure races" are a very small minority; almost every human character (and half-elf, half-dwarf, halfling, etc) in the setting has several other races in their lineage. Every "human" has a little elf blood, dwarf blood, orc blood, some planar flavor, etc.
I think it is rarely discussed of thought of, at least in my experience. Outside the standard half elf and/or half-orc thing. And I suspect its because there's no mechanical effect, so it has less motivation to be a topic.
 

Remathilis

Legend
the 'humans aren't special, they're the baseline' was probably much more effective when all the other species were actually built on a model of 'strength and a weakness', no your human doesn't have enhanced senses, is resistant to poison or can create illusions and talk to animals but at the same time you're not super frail, a terrible conversationalist or 3ft tall.
Yeah it makes sense when humans are the entry point and all other races are deviations from the norm. 4e is the only edition that treated humans like every other fantasy race with a common origin and religion (though both are now lost).
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I think it is rarely discussed of thought of, at least in my experience. Outside the standard half elf and/or half-orc thing. And I suspect its because there's no mechanical effect, so it has less motivation to be a topic.
I use it primarily for description and world-building when I'm DMing. In my current game, for example, I ended up with 3 half-orc PCs, so I made orcs and orcish blood a more common feature in NPCs. Greenish tints, small fangs, and being on the taller and bulkier side are common descriptors.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
But Faerun humans can do things Earth humans can't, despite implicitly in-universe supposed to be descendants of Earth people.

Consider this. John Carter, Jeddak of Jeddaks, Warlord of Mars is an Earth human (supposedly, let's not get into how old he might be).

But on Barsoom, he's a heavy gravity lifeform on a planet with less gravity, giving him superhuman powers despite not explicitly (longevity aside) being human.

So one could easily state that being exposed to a world suffused with magical energy, coming from a world that doesn't have magical beasts and Elves running around could give you abilities beyond mortal ken. It's a very old literary trope.

And there's a lot of evidence to support this in D&D, historically. It's hard to prove if psychic abilities exist on our planet, even if someone pulls off an incredible thing, they probably can't do it again on command under scrutiny, at least with consistency.

But a D&D human could totally have psionics and be able to perform them again and again on command.

Now Micah, I know what your objection is. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, D&D never states that it's humans are not the same as Earth humans. Well, at least, not that I've ever seen. And it's a valid point that it probably should. One shouldn't have to use logic or deep dive into the game's worlds and mechanics to discern this fact. It should be obvious.

And certainly, mechanical arguments are difficult because it's hard to differentiate between "the game is making an absolute statement about the capabilities of (insert thing)" from "this is an abstraction for ease of play". Which leads to a lot of these same arguments.

I can prove that there are humans in Faerun who are not like Earth humans and do things humans can't. It was actually quite trivial to do in prior editions, a little harder in 5e, but still possible. What does that mean, though? What are we supposed to take away from that?

The game books stay silent on the issue, and for good reason- the idea that humans aren't humans might not be something you want in your game. And that's not necessarily a bad thing (I called it a mistake upthread, but that's mostly because I tire of some of these talking points, lol).

The truth is, D&D shouldn't tell you what isn't possible. It should tell you what could be possible. D&D is for everyone, everyone has a right to play and have fun in their own way. If that means you want to view the game with the default assumption that it starts with our world with exceptions, and that makes the game more enjoyable for you and your group- go for it!

You just have to occasionally squint and look the other way when there are exceptions that aren't stated. I mean, the core system has abstractions that we really shouldn't engage with because they make no sense, like, you know, hit points, armor class, and so on.

However, it's an equally valid way to play the game to look at these exceptions as defining the game's worlds and settings. I would say to a point, or you get a Tippyverse which does not resemble traditional D&D at all, but it's still valid, as long as the game remains fun for the players.

For example, despite explicitly being stated as being Earth in the past, there exist humans in Middle-Earth with abilities Earth humans don't have (Aragorn, with his High Numenorean lineage). Does this mean Men in Middle-Earth aren't humans? Or should we take it to mean that, in a world where magic is at a higher level than it is (apparently) on our planet now that humans have additional capabilities we don't seem to possess?
 
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