D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Perhaps. But the more pre-prepped things are, the further away from sandbox it is, and the closer to railroad it is. Pre-prepping is not sufficient for railroading--but it is necessary.
I don't prepare any more than I need to but I think it is important what you are preparing. Coming up with NPCs, organizations, their goals and motivations? Locations and features of the world like climate and weather patterns? Knock yourself out.

Preparing plots and story lines? Yeah, then I agree you're getting away from a sandbox.
 

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And yet if something goes wrong with any individual safety feature, I'm sure you would not immediately stop using the car just because that one feature stopped working.

If the engine stopped working, you would not drive that car. (Not that you'd have any choice, mind, but still.) Hence: the engine is of primary importance for driving a car. Whether the engine is powerful is not; whether the engine functions is.

The engine is what makes the car work. A car with every safety feature in the world and no engine, or a non-functional engine, is a particularly elaborate statue or highly inefficient wheel-cart; it cannot perform the task for which cars are designed, namely, driving. A car which lacks safety features (or which has safety features, but they are damaged/nonfunctional/spent/etc.) is still usable as a car, but won't be maximally safe.

So I stand by what I said: The car's engine is of primary importance. Once the engine meets the minimum functionality necessary for performing the function a car must perform, we can move on to other critical, but still necessarily secondary, concerns.

Likewise, a game system needs its metaphorical "engine" to work correctly, or it fails to perform the function of being a game people can play. Once the core system performs at the minimum level necessary, then we can start focusing on other critical concerns.

Further: "engine failure" can be just as dangerous as brake failure. If your engine fails while you're on train tracks, or in the middle of an intersection, or any of various other places, that is just as dangerous as brake failure--just a matter of being the obstacle something else hits, rather than being the hitting thing colliding with some other obstacle. So a failed engine is no more nor less a safety concern while driving than failed brakes; you need both things for a safe vehicle, but you need the engine to have a vehicle at all.

Again we are getting way, way lost in the metaphor. But like I said before, safety is still my priority with cars and I put more weigh on the brakes than the engine for this reason. Yes engines can also fail in dangerous ways but breaks failing are always dangerous
 


My experience has been different. However, it is not a question of which experience is more relevant. It's about understanding our respective circumstances and why we make the creative choices we do.

An important consideration is how long the referee plans to use the setting that is the focus of the sandbox campaign. If just for the one campaign, then inconsistencies are less likely to matter. This also means that ease of prep is a primary consideration, which makes the use heavy use of procedural generation a wise choice.

However, for someone like me who uses the same fantasy setting across multiple campaigns, consistency is crucial. So I use procedural generation differently compared to someone solely concerned with ease of prep.


/snip
Like a lot of things in RPGdom, I think that "length of use" is probably one of the biggest points of departure for a lot of people's experience. I'll admit that I do not reuse settings to any great extend. A campaign has a setting, and, by and large, a half life of about 1-2 years. At the end of that campaign, that setting is retired and probably never sees the light of day again. Even when I've used something like Forgotten Realms, each campaign is generally distinct enough that the events of one campaign have zero impact on another.

For example, my Candlekeep Mysteries campaign resulted in the death of the Tarrasque as well as the Shadowfell being remade and light being brought back. It also resulted in the release of Zargon into the world again.

That version of Forgotten Realms will likely never see the light of day again. After all, my current campaign is set in the FR Underdark (a nice sandboxy Out of the Abyss game - hey look 300 page setting bible :D ). The events of Candlekeep Mysteries might come up as an Easter Egg, but, likely will not have any impact whatsoever on the current campaign. Heck, only one of my current 4 players actually was in that Candlekeep Mysteries game.

Which brings me to my second biggest impact on RPG's - half-life of groups. If you have a stable group that plays together for years or decades, you are going to have a radically different experience with RPG's than someone whose groups tend to have a half life measured in months or years. And that is really going to impact how you approach games.
 


No clue where you're getting this. (a) I don't "miss the point" generally here in this conversation (my contribution has been minimal) and (b) I definitely don't "miss the point by trying to define a sandbox campaign beyond saying that players are allowed to trash the setting."

No idea where you got that (maybe this is an accidental misattribution)?

Certainly isn't something I've conceived or put forth.

What you do in your games is not a mystery to me, sir. I understand it, and the general phenomenon, quite well. My questions are typically aimed at probing specific, gameplay-generating (or gameplay-absent) dynamics. I'm not going to waste time on overbroad "allowed to trash the setting" evaluations which could mean an enormously varying number of things while simultaneously telling me very little about what is actually happening in the moment-to-moment, blow-by-blow of play where the game's engine (system + prep + GM decision-making process) generates (or doesn't) compelling decision-trees for players to navigate. That is pretty much all I care about in these conversations; what is a game trying to do, how (very specifically) does it go about that, and is it successful?

The genesis of my comment to @AbdulAlhazred begins with this comment you made in post #2409:

"I think there is absolutely a central lesson here in terms of 'what constitutes a sandbox.'"

Then you outlined a list of elements:
  • A prepped and keyed map with crucial sites, where novel qualities of locales, spatial dimensions, and spatial relationships are nailed down and are actionable for the players' and GM's respective decision-spaces.
  • A fairly sizable number of factions with clear and provocative motivations, enough at-odds with each other to generate momentous conflict that compels players to declare a side.
  • A coherently constrained space.
These are excellent techniques for managing a sandbox campaign. But they are not what constitutes a sandbox campaign. Which led to my comments about defining a sandbox campaign.

To evaluate techniques for managing sandbox campaigns, it is crucial to first consider the overall creative goal, what distinguishes sandbox campaigns from other types of tabletop roleplaying.

My view is that goal is very specific:
A campaign where players are free to trash the setting through their characters.

To expand:
  • A campaign where players pretend to be characters having adventures.
  • A setting that can be altered or destroyed through player action.
  • Crucially, players are free to trash the setting in any way within their characters' capabilities.
I use the word "trash" deliberately because of its negative connotation, to highlight, with a bit of humor, that managing a sandbox campaign requires the referee to let go of any preconceived notion that events must unfold in a particular way, beyond what is plausible for the circumstances.

"Letting players trash the setting as their characters" is the answer to your question of "what is a game trying to do." Your comments in post #2409 didn't fully address this foundational question.

With that answer, we can move on to discussing "how does it go about that", along with "is it successful?".
 

My view is that goal is very specific:
A campaign where players are free to trash the setting through their characters.
By that definition, I can see why you would say things like Dungeonworld or whatnot would not qualify as sandboxes since there's no actual sandbox to trash. At least, not at the outset.

Although, I wonder, if a game where the players have more direct editorial power over the setting might become more and more sandboxlike the longer it goes. Since it's procedurally created (excellent phrasing by the way), once elements are created, they can then be trashed.

Just a thought.
 

Like a lot of things in RPGdom, I think that "length of use" is probably one of the biggest points of departure for a lot of people's experience.
I agree, which is why I try to explain my experience at some point and emphasize that my insights are a way to run sandbox campaigns, not THE way.

Specific for myself it is more than that, as I have extensive experience trying to manage campaigns with other types of roleplaying like LARPS and MMORPGs (modded servers like for Bioware's NWN). For LARPs the fact that live action is the primary method of adjudication means I have to adopt a different set of techniques for directing LARP events. For MMORPGs, the fact that a software algorithm is doing most of the refereeing brought in a different set of techniques.

There is some overlap in technique but the combination for each is unique as well as it application. Each had its own point of departure as a result of making a different choice on how to adjudicate the campaign.

I'll admit that I do not reuse settings to any great extend. A campaign has a setting, and, by and large, a half life of about 1-2 years. At the end of that campaign, that setting is retired and probably never sees the light of day again. Even when I've used something like Forgotten Realms, each campaign is generally distinct enough that the events of one campaign have zero impact on another.
That preference works just as well as any other and provides crucial context for your preference as far as systems go.

For example, my Candlekeep Mysteries campaign resulted in the death of the Tarrasque as well as the Shadowfell being remade and light being brought back. It also resulted in the release of Zargon into the world again.
As a side note: I did destroy the Majestic Wilderlands once and retconned it later. However, I revived it briefly as an "alternate universe" version for when the group wanted to try D&D 4e. I attached the Dark Wilderlands write up I made before the campaign.

I figured that 24/7 fantasy superheroic feel that D&D 4e had would make this a good fit for this in a short campaign.


Which brings me to my second biggest impact on RPG's - half-life of groups. If you have a stable group that plays together for years or decades, you are going to have a radically different experience with RPG's than someone whose groups tend to have a half life measured in months or years. And that is really going to impact how you approach games.
While I have friends I have known for decades show up in successive campaigns, in general, each campaign has its own distinct group of players and characters and lasts for one or two years. I will then update my campaign notes and push the timeline forwards a year or two for the next campaign.

However I generally don't know where the next campaign will start. The players and I will talk about what they want to experience and what circumstances they want to start out in. Often it is a couple of distinct ideas. I will then outline three or four regions of the Wilderlands (and lately the Majestic Fantasy Realms) that fits their idea. They pick one and we finish up character generation.

I have mediocre records of my face-to-face campaign, but I have also been using VTTs since the late 2000s. With that I been keeping a pretty good log of the campaigns I run on-line. The notes themselves are still pretty terse.

For example, this is is what a campaign entry looks like .

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Compare a blog entry I made about this campaign.

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To another campaign two years later (lasted from July 2014 to August 2015)
Tim, Dan, Josh (Rhandom), and Ken all played in the Nomar campaign.

1745907032701.png


Compared to a campaign I am running now in 2025 where Josh is the only player from two above. However, I gained Dave an old from high school and college, and who played my Majestic Wilderlands multiple times.

1745907202794.png


While the above is set in my Majestic Fantasy Realms, it is in effect a reskinned version of the work I did for my Majestic Wilderlands, so it is more of a continuation rather than a brand new setting. Dave had no problem using what he knew from playing 20 years ago in the new campaign. In fact mocked me just tonight because I was tired and kept slipping up using my original MW names for cultures and deities rather than my MFR versions.


Hoped that clarifies how things work out with the way I run things.

Finally, I heard first-hand accounts of groups who played for decades with the same group of characters. And I am still not clear how that is managed on both side of the screen. With my campaigns, the players get to a point where they feel that they have accomplished what they wanted to do with their characters between a year and three years after the start of the campaign (with weekly or bi-weekly sessions). As a result the campaign has a stopping point that feel right. For the Nomar campaign, that point came when the inn was finished being built, which was the focus of the players for the last third of the campaign.
 

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Although, I wonder, if a game where the players have more direct editorial power over the setting might become more and more sandboxlike the longer it goes. Since it's procedurally created (excellent phrasing by the way), once elements are created, they can then be trashed.
Yes, IMO that is an accurate observation. In fact, a lot of interesting things happen if you stick to the same setting for a long time, whether it is a long-running single campaign or across multiple campaigns. Not just in terms of "things to trash" but what happens with systems, player investment, and how a setting functions and feels after multiple different groups have "trashed it".


By that definition, I can see why you would say things like Dungeonworld or whatnot would not qualify as sandboxes since there's no actual sandbox to trash. At least, not at the outset.
I am very reluctant to say a particular system would not qualify because, in my strong opinion, a sandbox campaign results from a choice in how a given campaign is refereed. And my observation that most RPGs focus on players pretending to be humans having adventures.

I would be surprised that Dungeonworld couldn't be used to run a sandbox campaign using my techniques. But to be clear, it wouldn't be anything like how the author of Dungeonworld intended it to be run. On the other hand, you shouldn't need to rewrite the entire book either, because it does handle humans having adventures.

Although if a person tried this, my money would be on a result that is a "good enough" hybrid that preserves the essence of DungeonWorld combined with what the individual liked about a sandbox campaign. Which works just as well as any other approach.
 


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