D&D 5E What If Everyone Could Use Scrolls? (House rule)

CleverNickName said:

My spouse said something similar. They suggested making the DC equal to (10 + double the spell level), because of the way that upcasting works in 5E. That way, a scroll containing a 1st level magic missile would be DC 12, and a scroll containing a 9th level magic missile would be DC 28. Cantrips, since they don't have a spell level, would always be DC 10.

I kinda like that approach.

I can see the logic of adding an Intelligence restriction, but I worry that if I do that, I'm pretty much guaranteeing that only the high-Int character in the party will ever use them. "Another scroll! Give it to the wizard, he's the only one who can use it." I'd rather impose Disadvantage or something rather than just saying Nope, so that low-Int characters have a shot (however unlikely).

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For scrolls, I would make them skill checks. Healing magic requires Medicine check, elemental magic requires Nature check, summoning magic requires Religion or Arcana, and so on. It is ok for a scroll to be unique and flavorful.

I was in a game with a similar rule. Then everyone bought scrolls if fund greater steed.

Obviously you can just not let players get whatever scrolls they want, but you will need to watch out for exploits like that.

jmartkdr2 said:

I was in a game with a similar rule. Then everyone bought scrolls if fund greater steed.

Obviously you can just not let players get whatever scrolls they want, but you will need to watch out for exploits like that.

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Yeah, exploits will always be a problem with my gaming group. I have started making a list of potential spells that could be problematic for my table but honestly? The problem isn't that anyone can use scrolls...the problem is letting the party have as many scrolls as they want, for any spell they want. That would be problematic even without my "everyone can use scrolls' house rule.

So I intend to avoid this issue the same way I always have: scarcity and time. Shops that sell magical scrolls will have a randomly-generated stock in limited quantities. Crafting custom magic items is a slow and expensive process, per the Downtime rules in "Xanathar's Guide to Everything." Buying a specific scroll is a slow and arduous process, per the Downtime rules for Buying a Magic Item (also in XGtE). As @Kobold Stew said earlier:

Kobold Stew said:

It's only a "factory" if you as DM have given the players so much cash that this is all they can do with it. That's fundamentally a separate problem.

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As for find greater steed specifically? I think things will be fine. If I go with the higher spell DC (10 + double the spell level), and if I keep it strictly as an Intelligence (Arcana) check, it won't be a problem. It's a 4th level spell, so passing a DC 18 Intelligence (Arcana) check would be a challenge for most characters at my table--my players usually tank Intelligence. And a spell mishap with a summoned creature has some excellent potential for chaos.

"The griffon appears! But something is wrong...it's looking at you with hungry, angry eyes..."

Just as an aside, another potential abuse could be the spellcasters crafting scrolls for the non-spellcasters - or just for each other. By the rules, it would be way cheaper to scribe your own than go out and buy them - and depend on random chance at that.

Wiz: "Hey, that heal spell is pretty nice - could you make me a copy Mr. Cleric?"
Paladin: "Hey guys, I just finished all the find greater steed scrolls we talked about earlier. Let me know when I need to make another batch."

CleverNickName said:

Yeah, exploits will always be a problem with my gaming group. I have started making a list of potential spells that could be problematic for my table but honestly? The problem isn't that anyone can use scrolls...the problem is letting the party have as many scrolls as they want, for any spell they want. That would be problematic even without my "everyone can use scrolls' house rule.

So I intend to avoid this issue the same way I always have: scarcity and time. Shops that sell magical scrolls will have a randomly-generated stock in limited quantities. Crafting custom magic items is a slow and expensive process, per the Downtime rules in "Xanathar's Guide to Everything." Buying a specific scroll is a slow and arduous process, per the Downtime rules for Buying a Magic Item (also in XGtE). As @Kobold Stew said earlier:


As for find greater steed specifically? I think things will be fine. If I go with the higher spell DC (10 + double the spell level), and if I keep it strictly as an Intelligence (Arcana) check, it won't be a problem. It's a 4th level spell, so passing a DC 18 Intelligence (Arcana) check would be a challenge for most characters at my table--my players usually tank Intelligence. And a spell mishap with a summoned creature has some excellent potential for chaos.

"The griffon appears! But something is wrong...it's looking at you with hungry, angry eyes..."

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Stormonu said:

Just as an aside, another potential abuse could be the spellcasters crafting scrolls for the non-spellcasters - or just for each other. By the rules, it would be way cheaper to scribe your own than go out and buy them - and depend on random chance at that.

Wiz: "Hey, that heal spell is pretty nice - could you make me a copy Mr. Cleric?"
Paladin: "Hey guys, I just finished all the find greater steed scrolls we talked about earlier. Let me know when I need to make another batch."

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Both great reasons to make casting from scrolls like 4E rituals. Long casting time and expensive components.

Something like a check to cast even as a ritual and 1000gp per spell level should about line up right.

You could even make rituals a mini game or skill challenge. Multiple rolls throughout the long casting time and you can to extra prep to get rerolls or advantage. Bring in something like DCC RPG ritual magic where you're spending extra resources for a reroll/advantage or making a bigger sacrifice or spellburn. There's a lot you can do to balance out magic. D&D does basically none of it by default.

Stormonu said:

By the rules, it would be way cheaper to scribe your own than go out and buy them - and depend on random chance at that.

Wiz: "Hey, that heal spell is pretty nice - could you make me a copy Mr. Cleric?"
Paladin: "Hey guys, I just finished all the find greater steed scrolls we talked about earlier. Let me know when I need to make another batch."

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overgeeked said:

Both great reasons to make casting from scrolls like 4E rituals. Long casting time and expensive components.

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This house rule doesn't add more scrolls to the game, it just changes who is able to use them. Whatever is currently stopping the players from doing the things you describe will still be in place with this house rule.

CleverNickName said:

This house rule doesn't add more scrolls to the game, it just changes who is able to use them. Whatever is currently stopping the players from doing the things you describe will still be in place with this house rule.

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I think the idea is, there will be more scrolls because of usability and demand increases:

A. Only wizard can cast Fireball from scroll, they make extra so they don't run out. But its still just one Fireball per round.
B. Everybody in the party can cast Fireball from scroll, wizard makes extra so they don't run out. Multiple Fireball go off per round.

I thought this comment by @Laurefindel in an other thread about classical vancian casting according to the novels, might be interesting here where scrolls (instructions for ceremonies) are available to any character.

Laurefindel said:

I like Vancian casting and prefer it over other types, especially for D&D’s kind of magic. Things is, spell slots are a secondary concept in Vancian magic; the three main principal concepts of Vancian magic apply in many RPGs, some of which use spell points.

1) magic is finite - someone can « run out » of magic until their font of magic is replenished. Many RPG use this for balance.

2) magic is not free-form - magic is performed in specific and limited packages of effects called spells. Some spells are more difficult than others, usually bringing bigger effects (spell levels). Many RPG use this for simplicity.

3) magic is slow - casting a whole spell is too long to be practical in everyday life, so spells are « pre-cast » and their effect is hung until the final step is triggered. This part is only vestigial in modern D&D and can easily be circumvented in 5e.

The more experienced the Vancian magician, the more complex of a spell they can pre-cast, and the more spells they can hang at once. Hence the analogy of a mage packing spells like a loaded gun. Experienced mages have guns of higher caliber and with larger magazines.

Spell points are more versatile than spell slots but they can serve a Vancian system just the same. A lot of people have issues with spell slots but that part isn’t Vancian; it’s Gygaxian. And the « memorizing » part of Vancian magic is almost completely out of D&D already.

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SkidAce said:

I think the idea is, there will be more scrolls because of usability and demand increases:

A. Only wizard can cast Fireball from scroll, they make extra so they don't run out. But its still just one Fireball per round.
B. Everybody in the party can cast Fireball from scroll, wizard makes extra so they don't run out. Multiple Fireball go off per round.

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Ah, I get what you're saying. I suppose it would be possible for the party to use multiple scrolls at once in a single round, in the hope of dealing ~28 points of fire damage for every week of downtime and 400gp the wizard spent on those scrolls. Assuming there were no complications during Downtime. And assuming the characters all pass their Arcana checks. And the monsters aren't resistant. And fail their save throws.

But such a strange tactic would require an immense amount of dedication, time, money, and coordination. Nobody at my table is going to want to (literally) burn that many resources all at once, for such a low chance of success....and certainly not more than once. So I'd probably allow it---they've earned it, after all.

Haste would be a much bigger problem, IMO. A stockpile of Haste scrolls means that the Fighter and the Monk get to attack roughly 234,427 times per round and are no longer bottlenecked by Concentration, so everyone else at the table gets bored and walks to the kitchen while they wait for their turn. The game has to stay fun for everyone.

But mass-production of scrolls isn't difficult for the DM to prevent. If a quick out-of-character chat with the players, asking them not to cheese up the game doesn't work, the DM could restrict the amount of downtime that the characters get between adventures. The DM could also increase the chances (and severity) of complications, or make certain spell components hard to find, that sort of thing. DMs shouldn't let "clever" players steamroll the game.