D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

Minigiant said:

There is an option.

You have to display actual examples of martials at various levels and build the classes to that.

The core issue is the designers of D&D and most D&D clones have no desire to run nor look at the progression of martial classes past level 7 or so.

Just progress the barbarian from Angry Warrior Dude to the Hulk. If you get to level 20, and haven't created a Hulk... throw away the draft and start over.

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That's been my suggestion before (using the Tiers of Play), and I would love a solution like that, but it steps on the toes of people who just want martials to swing a stick and bonk a goblin -> orc -> demon -> dragon -> lich.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think WOTC is so risk averse, you won't see it in this space.

James Gasik said:

Ok, so, in conclusion-

1) Magic as it exists cannot be balanced against anything that isn't magic.

2) Not enough people want to reign in the power of magic, "because it wouldn't be magic".

3) Many people want to play characters who do not use magic (this includes doing anything that they would consider "supernatural", beyond possibly, the feats of an average action hero).

Alrighty then, nothing to see here. I think I understand the Martial/Caster deniers. There is no problem, everything is working as intended!

Be right back, I need to make an appointment. My eyes rolled so hard they hurt now.

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I'm also a little vague on exactly how martials are meant to be underpowered. Like, is it because they don't do as much damage? Is it because they can't teleport and fly and grant wishes? And is it a problem at 1st level or is it just a problem at like 15th? Is it because they don't have as many options? Everyone's got a different problem they want addressed.

grimmgoose said:

That's been my suggestion before (using the Tiers of Play), and I would love a solution like that, but it steps on the toes of people who just want martials to swing a stick and bonk a goblin -> orc -> demon -> dragon -> lich.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think WOTC is so risk averse, you won't see it in this space.

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Well the base fighter and barbarian don't need to do much more than bonk a goblin -> orc -> demon -> dragon -> lich.
The core issue seems to be versatility of bonking, defenses, and utility.

Basically if mostly martial PCs are only for bonking, it needs to bonk harder.
Basically if mostly martial PCs are supposed to be helpful at something other than bonking, it needs nonbonking features that aren't spells.

ECMO3 said:

For me caster is a lot easier to define than martial. If you can cast any spells at all you are a caster. Whether it is one cantrip once a day or a full complement of spells up to 9th level, if you cast you are a caster.

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I guess what I meant was that getting casting ability from your race doesn't impact on whether I'd consider a class a caster.

Martial has multiple definitions, noncaster and weapon combat focused. So a paladin could be a martial or not so it depends on context for usage.

In a discussion of balancing martials against casters I think the context is more non caster class stuff like champion fighters versus full caster classes like wizards instead of say balancing non weapon focused eldritch blast warlocks against hexblades.

Minigiant said:

Well the base fighter and barbarian don't need to do much more than bonk a goblin -> orc -> demon -> dragon -> lich.
The core issue seems to be versatility of bonking, defenses, and utility.

Basically if mostly martial PCs are only for bonking, it needs to bonk harder.
Basically if mostly martial PCs are supposed to be helpful at something other than bonking, it needs nonbonking features that aren't spells.

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Ah ha, so maybe we don't agree!

In my view, fighters and barbarians should do more than just bonk! By Tier 4, the Barbarian should be able to smash through a mountain; the fighter should be able to cleave through a horde of enemies like an isekai protagonist.

Bonking harder, in my view, doesn't fix the martial/caster disparity. The power of bonk is meaningless to a caster who can shut down an encounter with the wave of his hand, or teleport across the planes, or [insert powerful spell here].

That's what I meant, originally, when I said it's an unsolveable problem for d20 games.

I'm A Banana said:

I'm also a little vague on exactly how martials are meant to be underpowered. Like, is it because they don't do as much damage? Is it because they can't teleport and fly and grant wishes? And is it a problem at 1st level or is it just a problem at like 15th? Is it because they don't have as many options? Everyone's got a different problem they want addressed.

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Because control inherently scales.
Command, or instance, works just as well against a Goblin as a Dragon Turtle.

And a cleric can cast it 6 times vs goblins, and 22 times vs Dragon Turtles.
Thus they scale 4x faster than monsters.

Where a fighter might take 2 turns to kill something at level 1, and 2 turns to kill something at level 20.
They scale the same as monsters.


Thus, my suggestion for less slots (14) at higher level, making casters a mear 2x scaling.

grimmgoose said:

That's been my suggestion before (using the Tiers of Play), and I would love a solution like that, but it steps on the toes of people who just want martials to swing a stick and bonk a goblin -> orc -> demon -> dragon -> lich.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think WOTC is so risk averse, you won't see it in this space.

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I actually want to see someone build a game that starts with, "Okay, how do we make 20th level fun," then works backwards from there to get low-level to also work.

I'm A Banana said:

I'm also a little vague on exactly how martials are meant to be underpowered. Like, is it because they don't do as much damage? Is it because they can't teleport and fly and grant wishes? And is it a problem at 1st level or is it just a problem at like 15th? Is it because they don't have as many options? Everyone's got a different problem they want addressed.

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Magic trumps mundane weapons. Should be simple to understand. If someone feels that imbalances the game, that's a discussion for that person and the people they game with. But, there is no broad "fix" because everyone doesn't see it as a problem

I'm A Banana said:

I'm also a little vague on exactly how martials are meant to be underpowered. Like, is it because they don't do as much damage? Is it because they can't teleport and fly and grant wishes? And is it a problem at 1st level or is it just a problem at like 15th? Is it because they don't have as many options? Everyone's got a different problem they want addressed.

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In my experience, it comes down to two things:

1- "Martial" classes (ie, ones that are intended to solve problems with more mundane means, like Attack Actions and skill checks) can encounter situations where neither of these is sufficient to the task.

Look, I know that someone is going to tear apart any examples I make, or say something like "skilled play", or "Improvise Action", or "just house rule it", because I've been in a lot of these discussions, but here's a few:

*NPC caster flies away/teleports/goes ethereal to escape. The Martial can't even track them, they're just, gone, man.

*You come upon a door that has been magically sealed, say, with Arcane Lock. You simply cannot hit the DC's required to open or break the door down.

*You're fighting a creature resistant to (or even immune to) normal weapons, but is vulnerable to cold damage.

*Your enemies decide to ambush you. Pass Without Trace makes the DC to detect them almost (or maybe even) impossible.

*You want to ambush your enemies. Oops, turns out they had an Alarm spell going. Or are resting inside a Tiny Hut.

*You get into a fight with a Medusa. One of your allies is turned into a stone statue. Unless the DM adds it to the game, the default answer to this is....magic!

*In a crucial fight, you get trapped inside a Wall of Force and must watch helplessly as your allies fight.

2- The adventuring "day" is too short to compete with "I Win" buttons spellcasters have access to. Most games I've been in, people think "adventuring day" means "in-game day", because that's logical and makes sense to them. You sleep 6-8 hours every day, surely that's a Long Rest, right? But when you run the game that way, you're not always going to have a bunch of encounters. Traveling from point A to point B, you might encounter some wandering monster on Day 2 of 4. Or bandits. Or anything, really. Even if the DM tunes the encounter up, knowing it's likely going to be the only one the players face, when the casters can just toss out their most effective spells, some of whom can just trivialize the encounter, non-casters can feel completely overshadowed.

Now D&D is a team game, and it's intended to give everyone equal "spotlight" time. But there are things non-casters cannot do, and very few things casters can't do. It's great if you're really good at making skill checks, or attacking eight times a turn, but there are scenarios those things can't solve.

And yeah, sure, there are things magic has a hard time with, like Magic/Legendary Resistance, or DM's deciding to toss "antimagic fields" everywhere, lol, but in a lot of games, it can seem like the game is designed for the answer to a lot of problems is "magic man".