D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

@pemerton posted this before but never got a reply, I assume it got lost in the flood of new messages ;)


ok, I’ll bite… so it looks like Thoth tries to create an undead, so they are kinda like Frankenstein, at least that is my take-away from the scenario you describe. So I can see how your example scenario might work out for this, but you also say that this is not how it would work in BW.

I assume the belief is a priority too, so ‘your’ job is to frame Thoth in scenes around that belief, or is that your issue, that the sequence of tasks you describe had nothing to do with Thoth’s priorities despite resulting in them creating an undead? Is the distinction you make that the sequence of tasks you describe are not scenes, or is it something more fundamental, e.g. that you should challenge the belief, maybe by the scene questioning the morality of creating undead, rather than just throwing obstacles in the way of Thoth creating their first undead?

If it was done in the no-myth style it might look something the following: Let's assume Thoth is some kind of wizard and he has the following three beliefs:


find a way to bring the dead to life

find converts

warn against violence in all its forms


As GM II ask the player to frame the first scene. I have scene frame authority but I'm ceding it.



The player say they're studying their books to get some kind of lead on magic that will help them bring the dead to life. I ask for a roll it succeeds and I make something up. In this case that there are texts in the library of Abramas that will allow this.

I again ask the player what they want to do. They of course go to the library so I frame a scene.

Thoth tells the librarians he wants to vanquish death (find converts) and needs access to the library texts (find a way to bring the dead back to life)

He rolls to see if the librarians will join his cause and fails. They cast him out and call him abomination.

I again ask the player what he wants to do next. He wants to sneak into the library to get the texts. I frame the scene and Thoth fails, so I decide a guard is alerted before he obtains the text.

Thoth now has a choice. He decides his belief 'find a way' is more pressing than 'warn against violence.' He smashes the guards head, we roll and he is successful.

Thoth erases his belief 'warn against violence' and replaces it with 'any lives are worth the cost.'


I don't really play in no-myth style though so someone will have to correct me if I'm messing this up badly. The longer the sequence of events goes on the more apparent the GM orchestration of opposition would be.
 

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Why would you assume that feeling doesn't exist in Narrativist play? I mean, for one thing, it is not the case that SETTING is all defined in relation to the characters. Blades in the Dark is set in Doskvol, a fully realized dark fantasy city situated in the ruins of a mostly dead world at the end of time, after a magical apocalypse. It is richly imagined and quite detailed in many respects.

Yet the SITUATIONS which confront the PCs are not drawn up beforehand by the GM. Circumstances are, in a general sense, established by the setting. The players then imagine the specifics as they relate to their crew, and the GM frames specific scenes and many of the associated details as required. The world of Doskvol seems quite real in play, nothing about it is less 'realistic' in any sense I can discern than Rob Conley's Wilderlands.

I think a lot of the problem that some of us with a lot of Narrativist experience have when we get into these discussions is that there seems to be this deeply entrenched set of misconceptions and mischaracterizations, and a sort of ideology that seems to have formed for, basically, the purpose of putting forth these rather empty objections. Outside of these discussions I find those objections non-existent. In all the time I've played I've yet to actually meet someone who sat down and played a game like Dungeon World and then had this sort of reaction.

I guess we could hypothesize that the population of posters here is highly selected for an unusual type of player. That may be true, but TBH I feel more like there's a kind of echo chamber going on.
Two things.

One, my point was not that the resulting scenarios in narrative games don't feel realistic. If you describe them after the fact they do. The point is that as a player I don't feel the world to be as firm because I can easily change aspects of it.

Two, I've played narrative games, including blades, for several campaigns. I've run one. I enjoyed it at the time. I don't anymore.
 


Phew. Caught up again. Good grief guys, get a job. :D :lol:

Anyway, here is how I adapted Ironsworn rules for travel into my Out of the Abyss D&D game. Again, buckle up boys and girls this might get a bit wordy.

Exploration rules.webp
Ok, now, that needs some explanation. I'm presuming that regular travel from A to B is a Difficulty 3 (again, trying to avoid Ironsworn's jargon terms). Which means that on a Strong Hit (beat both challenge dice), you get 1 success. On a Weak Hit (beat 1 challenge die), you get 1 success but it costs you Supply (the party can carry a max of 5 supply, barring possible changes like getting pack horses or a bigger boat, whatever) and the possibility of a Random Event. A Miss (fail to beat either challenge dice) results in a Random Event.

Each travel period, I ask one of the players (round robin style) what they are doing to help the group reach their destination. They narrate whatever it is they are attempting to do, roll their check and we get the results. At the beginning, I was having half the group roll for "daytime" and the other half rolling for "nighttime" and I was tracking the number of successes and failures, but this was a bit too cumbersome, so, now we're doing it more the way Ironsworn would do it and only have one player declare per check.

So, that needs some extra explanation. :D Dice work like this: Player rolls 1d12 plus Skill (whatever the applicable skill is) and difficulty is 2d20, ie. the Challenge Dice. Rolls must exceed to succeed. So, the Player rolls 1d12 plus Survival (+4) and gets an 11. I roll 2d20 and get a 12 and an 8. This is a Weak hit - 1 success, 1 fail. Had I rolled under 11 for both, that would be a Strong hit and had I rolled over 11 for both, that would be a miss.

In order to Reach the Destination, you roll 2d10 vs the number of successes on your Travel Track. If you beat both 2d10, that's a Strong hit and you arrive. Weak hit means you lose supply and have an Event and a Miss means you lose all progress (reset the track to 0) and raise the difficulty level by 1, meaning you will need twice as many successes (ticks - 4 ticks = 1 success) for each point on the Travel Track. Basically, you've gotten horribly lost in the Underdark and now you have to get unlost.

Note, there are other actions that can be taken that don't give you successes on the Travel Track like Resupply and Make Camp. These are there for obvious reasons. Note, you are not forced to do either one at any time. If you had an incredible string of luck, rolled nothing but Strong Hits all the way along, you'd never bother Resupplying or Making Camp. The party is assumed to be sleeping/eating/whatever as time passes. The Moves are there for when things go badly. You can't take a Long Rest without Making Camp. You might run out of food (Supply) and need to Resupply or start suffering Exhaustion and Starvation effects.

Now, this is somewhat different from how Ironsworn would work. Mostly because this is a D&D Out of the Abyss campaign which has extensive random encounters baked into it. Traditionally, if I ran this by the book, I'd need to make about 40-50 random encounter checks between settlements. A whole PILE of dice fapping that I'm not interested in. This way, the players can declare what they're doing and be a bit creative as well. The Warlock, for example, used his Disguise Self ability to Intimidate the group (they have a small army of NPC's with them) into moving, failing the check spectacularly, to hilarious results.

Essentially, I've Frankensteined the rules together and they work really well, so far. I have a map, so, I know how difficult it would be to go from A to B or C or D. So, going to B is Formidable, while going to the dwarven stronghold of Blindingstone (a Good stronghold in the Underdark) from where they are currently would be Epic. It was entirely up to them which they wanted to risk to go to.

---- Edit to add

Aw poop, I forgot one part.

The group has recently saved an NPC who knows (roughly) the location of a lost tomb and asks the party for their help in going there. Pretty standard quest stuff.

So, what I do then is add a second Travel Track to the above. This new Travel Track is not particularly difficult since the tomb is not really that far away and they have a guide who has a reasonable idea of how to find it. Now, there is still a chance of getting lost and whatnot, but, it's not a particularly challenging trip.

So, our new Travel Track is Difficulty 1 (3 successes/Hit). Meaning it's entirely possible that after 3 checks, they would have 9 successes, meaning that their chance of finding the Tomb is pretty high (remember, they need to exceed rolls, so, a 9 or a 10 on the Reach Goal check is a fail). So, they might do one more check just to get it to 10/10, meaning that their chance of success is the highest - only a 1% chance of failing.

Anyway, that is how you branch off side trips from a main trip. You can easily have multiple Travel Tracks in play at the same time. It's even possible, depending on the situation, that successes might cross over - You're chasing a baddie to a town you were intending to go to anyway. So on and so forth.
 
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Two things.

One, my point was not that the resulting scenarios in narrative games don't feel realistic. If you describe them after the fact they do. The point is that as a player I don't feel the world to be as firm because I can easily change aspects of it.

Two, I've played narrative games, including blades, for several campaigns. I've run one. I enjoyed it at the time. I don't anymore.
Now that, is totally fair.
 

The point is that as a player I don't feel the world to be as firm because I can easily change aspects of it.
I don't really follow this - as in, I can read the words and so on, but I don't know what system you're talking about, and am having trouble imagining the play.

When Alicia fell unconscious to the ground, the ragged poor coming to pick up the coin that had fallen from the sky due to her mis-cast, it felt real. The player couldn't easily change aspects of it.

When I, playing Aedhros, made the harbour official cry, it felt firm. And slightly cruel, even though it's all imaginary. There was no sense of a lack of firmness.

Perhaps I'm not grasping what "change" means. I'm not sure.
 

I assume the belief is a priority too, so ‘your’ job is to frame Thoth in scenes around that belief. Is the distinction you make that the sequence of tasks you describe are not scenes, or is it something more fundamental, e.g. that you should challenge the belief, maybe by the scene questioning the morality of creating undead, rather than just throwing obstacles in the way of Thoth creating their first undead?
I'm not @pemerton, but for me, BW is a crucible for the player characters. It's constantly pushing for players to reassess who their little dudes are. "You said you believe this. Do you believe it now? What about now?" It's inherently contentious, in all directions (player <-> player, player <-> GM, player <-> self), and I think it pays off engaging with it that way.

Given that and given that Thoth's beliefs from #3663 are:
Beliefs
I will give the dead new life
Aedhros is a failure, so I will bind him to my will
Cometh the corpse, cometh Thoth!
I'd start at framing from his third belief, "Cometh the corpse, cometh Thoth!," rather than the first belief -- by presenting Thoth with an opportunity to secure a fresh corpse at a point that is fraught, inappropriate, or difficult. Let's say Thoth and Aedhros run into a rival death artist with similar interests at the Green Dragon Inn in Hardby. The rival's hammered and, before passing out, mentions he has a corpse upstairs in his room. It's late, and the inn is packed and rowdy. We can stop there, and there's enough to kick things off. But maybe I frame a twist once the corpse is secured -- this is the corpse of the Gynarch of Hardby's favorite. Is it worth trying to raise her? Are there limits to what Thoth will do?
 

Declaring certain actions rather than others seems like guiding what the GM says to me.

But this seems trivially possible in a fixed world sandbox, as I described. The players can learn what the Forest of Tears is like or the Glacier of the Worm is like. Then they can make meaningful choices.

Sure… it guides him to different areas of his prep. Go to one, the GM reads these paragraphs, go to the other, the GM reads those paragraphs.

There’s a difference between a GM referencing his prep as the primary contribution to what he says to the players, and a GM referencing the players’ stated priorities as the primary contribution to what he says to the players.

So if the GM is looking solely at his prep, then he’s going to tell me what’s in the Forest of Tears. Or at least, what the common knowledge may be. Then maybe there’s some esoteric info gated behind a roll that maybe a character may know. Then when we go there, he’ll reference his maps and the stat blocks and encounter areas or whatever else he has prepared. This still seems very much like the GM as the primary creator of what happens in play.

If a GM is starting with player priorities of some sort (either as stated goals of the players or as formal elements of character stats) then the GM is going to present things differently. Perhaps one of the PCs has a goal of “I will find my brother’s killer”. Okay… not the GM is going to draw on that to inform what he says about the Forest of Tears.

This is a very basic explanation and it’s based on a hypothetical, so it’s far from perfect, but I hope it helps some folks at least see the difference.

I'm confused at how you're imagining a fixed world where the players don't have access to any relevant information, and indeed no way to learn relevant information. I thought previously you meant they had to have all the information, which is why I used 'precisely'. But if you mean just knowing some information about the world...that seems trivial?

No one is saying players need all the information. We’re saying that as players of a game, they need a sufficient level of information to make an informed decision. Very often, what many of us would consider basic information, readily available, is withheld because it’s uncertain if the characters would know, or the players didn’t ask.

In my opinion, that’s poor GMing. Provide them with an abundance of information. Don’t make them fight for every scrap of useful info… don’t make them pixelbitch every single step of the way.

As the source of all the information the players have, the GM should be generous. He shouldn’t necessarily be concerned with limiting the players to what the characters would know.

There is no good faith game of D&D where the players have no control over the fiction and the DM controls everything. I may prep stuff, but they control the general type of prep I can do through their actions and declarations. If they decide to go to Shrilly Vanilli, I'm not going to prepare for them to arrive at the Swamp of Ill Repute on the other side of the world. I have to prepare for them to go to Shrilly Vanilli.

There are plenty. Railroading doesn’t require bad faith. It can be done without realizing it.

Doesn't that fairly quickly run the risk of meeting the (amended to suit) axiom "When everything is high-stakes play, nothing is"?

You know those moments of play where things come together in just such a way that makes you smile? Where you’re like wow what an interesting way for things to have worked out, I really didn’t see that coming?

Those don’t need to be only occasional interruptions of monotonous or bland play. That can literally be what you’re striving for almost all the time.

Hear, hear! That's largely our lot as well.

It's more muted in this thread than in some, but the indie-games crew sure like promoting what they do and telling us how great it is.

Yes we often say “Hear, hear!” to one another when one of us describes play we enjoy!
 

so it looks like Thoth tries to create an undead, so they are kinda like Frankenstein, at least that is my take-away from the scenario you describe. So I can see how your example scenario might work out for this, but you also say that this is not how it would work in BW.

I assume the belief is a priority too, so ‘your’ job is to frame Thoth in scenes around that belief, or is that your issue, that the sequence of tasks you describe had nothing to do with Thoth’s priorities despite resulting in them creating an undead? Is the distinction you make that the sequence of tasks you describe are not scenes, or is it something more fundamental, e.g. that you should challenge the belief, maybe by the scene questioning the morality of creating undead, rather than just throwing obstacles in the way of Thoth creating their first undead?
Here's a pretty simple illustration.

One approach: Thoth's player lets the GM know, "Thoth is a necromancer. He wants to master the art of creating undead." And so the GM presents a rumour: "The Book of Vile Darkness can be found in the Tomb of Vecna." Thoth's player says, "Cool" and has Thoth go off and try to find the Book in the Tomb. The next 20 sessions of play involve learning the location of the Tomb, travelling there, getting through the dungeon etc; with the book as the final prize.

Second approach: Thoth's player writes three Beliefs, that include I will give the dead new life! and Cometh the corpse, cometh Thoth! Every scene the GM frames somehow addresses those Beliefs - puts the possibility of undeath, or finding a corpse, or giving up the opportunity to take a corpse in pursuit of some other goal (say, humiliating Aedhros: Aedhros is a failure, so I will bind him to my will is the third Belief, after all).

In actual play, this second approach took the form of - (i) needing to rely on Aedhros to help collect corpses from a burnt-out ship; (ii) sending Aedhros out to capture someone who could then be a blood sacrifice to aid with Death Art; (iii) failing at Death Art, with the result that a foul shadow escaped out into the night-time drknaess; (iv) being called to aid a dying person and finding, by her bedside, a Death Priest ready to chide Thoth for his cavalier approach to collecting and dealing with corpses.

Here's the fuller account (I've snipped some of the stuff that involved only Aedhros; although this session was atypical in being played two-player/two-GM style, taking turn about to frame adversity for the other's character, the basic procedures are the standard ones for BW):
Thoth wanted to go to the docks to find corpses, of those who had died at sea. Aedhros was concerned that the fire on the Golden Sow would have attracted undue attention - but mention of this only made Thoth more eager, as there must be dead bodies as a result of that blaze! I think we agreed to resolve this as simple Persuasion vs Persuasion (both Beginner's Luck), and Thoth won. So Aedhros came with him. I (taking the GM role) narrated the blaze as extinguished, and the ship sitting charred on the harbour. The Ship's Master did not want to let Thoth on board, finding his obsession with corpses a little unpleasant, but in the Duel of Wits Thoth's body of argument remained completely intact, and so the Master conceded that he would allow Thoth to take and dispose of any bodies.

<snip>

Thoth, who has an Instinct to Always collect bits and pieces, also couldn't help but look around for Surgery tools, and succeeded on the Ob 10 test (Perception rolled for Beginner's Luck). A die of fate roll indicated that one corpse was available for collection, and Aedhros helped Thoth carry it off. At one point, something particularly grotesque happened (I think, as narrated by my friend, a bit of the body Aedhros was holding onto sloughed off) and a Steel test was called for and failed. Hesitating, Aedhros dropped the body, and it nearly landed in the water - but Thoth, driven by his desire for corpses!, succeeded on a Power test to not let go.

When the body was back in the workshop, Thoth used his Second Sight to read its Aura, looking for traits. This test failed, and so Thoth learned that the corpse had been Stubborn in life - perhaps why this particular sailor had not evacuated the Sow - which is a +1 Ob to Death Art. I also made a roll to determine the state of the body, which determined that the fire had damaged it to the same degree as a year of death, which added a further +4 Ob penalty. Thoth successfully performed Taxidermy - against Ob 5 - to preserve the corpse, with a roll good enough to carry over +1D advantage to the Death Art test but did not what to attempt the Ob 7 Death Art (with his Death Art 5) until he could be boosted by Blood Magic. And so he sent Aedhros out to find a victim

Aedhros had helped collect the corpse, and also helped with the Taxidermy (using his skill with Heart-seeker), but was unable to help with the Death Art. He was reasonably happy to now leave the workshop; and was no stranger to stealthy kidnappings in the dark.

<snip>

Aedhros followed one of the guards - George, as we later learned he was called - who also happened to be the one with the loot. Aedhros ambushed him from the darkness, and took him at knife point back to the workshop, where Thoth subject him to the necessary "treatment" (successful Torture test to inflict a PTGS 7 (Midi) wound), granting +2D to Death Art (and also sending George into a swoon, perhaps a blessing as it meant he did not need to witness the horrors of the Death Art performance). The dice were now rolled for the (careful) Death Art test, with 7 successes needed to raise the body from the ship as a Walking Dead. Only 6 successes (on 9 open-ended dice, with a Fate Point spent) were rolled, and so it failed. Looking at the GM advice for failed Death Art, I rolled an unwelcome summoning result, and something weird and creepy scurried out into the darkness.

And then, at that very moment - acting carefully, and failing, licenses a time-sensitive complication - there was a knock on the door. (How this door relates to the secret door onto the docks is not quite clear, but can be resolved in due course.) Serap, the maid servant of Lady Mina, had been told that Thoth was a surgeon whom she might be able to afford, to treat her mistress. She had 1D of coin to offer; Thoth insisted on 3D, and opposed Haggling checks were made (her rank 3 vs Thoth's Beginner's Luck) and they were tied, which I had agreed prior to rolling would be a 2D compromise. She paid the 1D now, and the rest would be paid after treatment.

Serap led Thoth, and Aedhros, through the streets. She had an initial shock when Thoth's sustained Wyrd Lights were revealed to be magical motes of life, rather than candles cleverly suspended from the ceiling, but only hesitated rather than swooning. The group arrived at Lady Mina's house, a grand one but past its prime. The staff were only an old watchman, and Serap. Most of the windows were in darkness. But a candle was lighting an upstairs window, and there in her sick-bed was Lady Mina. And sitting beside her, to provide religious comfort, was Father Simon. It was Father Simon who had suggested Thoth to Serap, and he now greeted him as a surgeon.

Father Simon is a NPC from earlier Burning Wheel play: the evil priest in Keep on the Borderlands, a death cultist who goes about disguised as an educated and erudite priest of the mainstream faith, who hears the confessions of noble men and women. Thoth is a Death Artist, a lifepath from the Death Cult, and he recognised Father Simon (as narrated by me as GM) and tested his Death Cult-wise (as declared by my friend, playing Thoth), to see what he recalled about this priest. But failed.

I thought about this. Although Thoth has some connection to the Death Cult, he has no affiliation with the cult, and so - as I discussed with my friend, the player of Thoth - this certainly raised the prospect that Thoth and the Cult might have some sort of unfinished business. This hung over the rest of this situation, which was the rest of the session.

Thoth performed Aura Reading on Lady Mina, and determined that she still lived, giving him +1D advantage on his surgery. Aedhros also helped with the Song of Soothing. But the test failed. And it had been performed carefully, which licensed a time-sensitive complication: I told Thoth's player that, even as he was trying to save the life of the Lady Mina, the guard George had regained consciousness and fled the workshop.

Aedhros, once again having someone die in front of him, and wishing still to be free of Thoth's curse, decided to try and heal Lady Mina himself. But with the double Ob penalty for no tools, it was an Ob 6 Song of Soothing test. Partially to have a chance of success, and also because I really wanted a Routine test for advancement, I mustered as many dice as I could: +2 for working with the care of the eternal, +1D advantage for having Thoth bring his Wyrd Lights down as close as possible, but also having to accept 2 dice of help from Thoth's Bloodletting 6. (The inner struggle and outer monologue of all this did earn me my Mouldbreaker persona.)

That test was also a failure - not a single success on 9 dice - and Lady Mina passed away.

Thoth then declared his intention to take her corpse away for disposal, and this triggered an intervention from Father Simon. He wanted her to be laid to rest in the city catacombs, with her ancestors; and there was also a sub-text of imposing Death Cult discipline on Thoth. This was a Duel of Wits, and Father Simon - a 7-lifepath burn with a heavy social emphasis and a good range of FoRKable Wises, Histories and Doctrines - succeeded with no loss to his body of argument. In the denouement, he chastised Thoth for his cavalier approach to the collection and treatment of corpses, at odds with the teachings of the Dark Gods from beyond the stars - who promise eternal life - and putting them all at risk. Evidence of this included the shadow from the void waiting outside, should Thoth try and return home in the darkness rather than waiting for the sun to rise.

And so the session ended with Thoth agreeing to come to the catacombs - with Aedhros, to see how to properly deal with a corpse and perhaps learn some doctrine too.
 

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