D&D General When We Were Wizards: Review of the Completed Podcast!

Cordwainer Fish said:

Beedeebeedeebeedee!

The CRPG Addict has play reports on both ([1] [2]) and the Digital Antiquarian has a flyby on the circumstances around their making.

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I was speaking more to the VHS? (it's been a minute, I'm fiuzzy and can't remember the product name ) based board-game

dbolack said:

I was speaking more to the VHS? (it's been a minute, I'm fiuzzy and can't remember the product name ) based board-game

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Ah, video based. There, Ah can no help you.

dbolack said:

I was speaking more to the VHS? (it's been a minute, I'm fiuzzy and can't remember the product name ) based board-game

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You’re probably thinking of DragonStrike. This was another board game by TSR in that same era. It was also competing with another TSR board game, Dragon Quest and both were targeted towards players of the very popular HeroQuest.

I'm glad this thread got resurrected. I had totally forgotten about this podcast. I've only made it through the first episode and a short way into the second.

I guess part of me has known for a long time how incredible dysfunctional Gary and TSR was. But to have it laid out so plainly. Not sure I have processed all that yet even though I don't find it surprising at all and fits with the things I've known and suspected for a long time.

There was nothing remotely unethical about Lorraine Williams’ TSR licensing Buck Rogers. The big difference between Williams’ TSR and its earlier incarnation is that, eventually, Lorraine effectively owned 100% of the company; it was no longer split between multiple owners. Under those circumstances, even if TSR overpaid for the Buck Rogers rights, Lorraine would have been cheating only herself. In fact, she would have been perfectly within her rights to simply pay herself money directly from TSR’s coffers for nothing at all, so long as it was properly accounted for. (This is called “declaring a dividend.”) When you own 100% of a company, you effectively are the “Board of Directors.” People who own 100% of multiple companies make deals between those companies all the time, even deals that favor one of those companies over another.* A lot of the commentary upthread assumes TSR should have been operated like a public company with lots of stockholders and regulations. That’s an entirely different situation.

(*Technically, there are some restrictions on the deals you can make between your own companies, mostly to prevent you from evading taxes or sheltering money from creditors, but none of that applies here.)

Releasing a Buck Rogers RPG circa 1990 was not a dumb idea. Nobody thought the property was potentially lucrative because of the old TV show. They thought it was potentially lucrative because of this:



That’s Buck Rogers drawn by comics superstar Frank Miller—in his creative prime and at the very height of his fame. Just a few years earlier, Miller’s DARK KNIGHT RETURNS was a pop culture phenomenon. Red hot Miller announced he was tackling Buck Rogers as his first major project, post-DARK KNIGHT; he even announced he was also planning to write a screenplay that tied into his new comic series. With Miller onboard for comics and Lorraine willing to throw TSR’s weight behind it—not just an RPG, but a range of novels from TSR’s successful book division, as well—it was not at all insane to believe BUCK ROGERS could be a big thing again. Of course, the program eventually fell apart, but that took a while.

Agreed about the ethics of her paying herself and Flint off with Buck Rogers. It was her company.

I think the substantive complaint there is more mismanagement as opposed to ethics. Given how badly these products evidently sold, her fixating on producing a ton of them looks somewhat like Gygax's fixation on getting his royalties no matter what it cost the company. Were they both entitled to get paid? Sure. Were they actually prioritizing it over the company's health, and damaging TSR's viability? That's what the public evidence seems to say.

WinningerR said:

Releasing a Buck Rogers RPG circa 1990 was not a dumb idea. Nobody thought the property was potentially lucrative because of the old TV show. They thought it was potentially lucrative because of this:

[image clipped for quote]

That’s Buck Rogers drawn by comics superstar Frank Miller—in his creative prime and at the very height of his fame. Just a few years earlier, Miller’s DARK KNIGHT RETURNS was a pop culture phenomenon. Red hot Miller announced he was tackling Buck Rogers as his first major project, post-DARK KNIGHT; he even announced he was also planning to write a screenplay that tied into his new comic series. With Miller onboard for comics and Lorraine willing to throw TSR’s weight behind it as well—not just an RPG, but a range of novels from TSR’s successful book division, as well—it was not at all insane to believe BUCK ROGERS could be a big thing again. Of course, the program eventually fell apart, but that took a while.

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Where can we read more about the Frank Miller connection? When that was announced and the dates and how they line up and so forth? Searching for more info on that image, I'm seeing that it was from 1990, and someone stating it was a proposed cover image for a graphic novel from TSR. When I search for "Frank Miller Buck Rogers 1980s" google is mostly giving me stuff about his attempted 2000s movie.

Miller's Dark Knight comics were 1986.
TSR's Buck Rogers XXVC property first got a board game in 1988, which didn't do well.
1989 is when the Batman movie came out, which was influenced by Miller's Dark Knight and Moore's Killing Joke, but didn't actually get greenlit until after Burton's Beetlejuice was successful.
1989 saw TSR put out four novels. Six more would follow through 1993.
1990 saw the Buck Rogers XXVC RPG come out and 5 supplements, as well as the first SSI computer RPG.
1991 4 more supplements for the RPG.
1992 Another SSI computer game.
1993 Another try at an RPG, High Adventure Cliffhangers Buck Rogers Adventure Game and one supplement.

If Miller had indeed updated and made Buck Rogers popular, like he helped happen with Batman, absolutely that would give the IP a huge shot in the arm. Are there some news stories I can read about this?

Right now the timeline looks more like Williams was already deeply invested in pumping out Buck Rogers products by the time Miller created that art. But perhaps they had already been talking for a few years?

WinningerR said:

With Miller onboard for comics and Lorraine willing to throw TSR’s weight behind it as well—not just an RPG, but a range of novels from TSR’s successful book division, as well—it was not at all insane to believe BUCK ROGERS could be a big thing again. Of course, the program eventually fell apart, but that took a while.

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And nothing risked, nothing gained.

It is way outside of my generation (I was 5 at this point in time), but honestly it still seems like an entirely reasonable project on paper, even in retrospect knowing thst not all of those things would line up.

Mannahnin said:

Right now the timeline looks more like Williams was already deeply invested in pumping out Buck Rogers products by the time Miller created that art. But perhaps they had already been talking for a few years?

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I mean, pumping up Buck Roger's was her long time family busienss: she is actually still today working on that, as of very recently.

I think it's an important distinction that yes, this is a private company, and does not have the same fiduciary duty to shareholders as a publicly traded company. I'd argue "ethics" covers a little more than that. Certainly looking out for your own family and friends was par for the course for TSR ownership prior to Williams.

Continuing to pour good money after bad is at least ethically questionable, and certainly financially silly.

From the books, podcasts, and documentaries, my view is that they did continue to produce Buck Rogers products for much longer than other failed projects. It was given a lot of rope and capital, relatively speaking.

But did it contribute to TSR's eventual failure under Williams? Probably not. We don't have the detailed financial records, but it doesn't seem to have played a role.

Yeah, there's a word for funneling the assets of a company you own into your own pockets. It's called a bust-out.