D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Nope, encounter is what I meant! It has a pretty specific use when it comes to RPGs. Certainly no more or less confusing than “moves”.

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Literally the entire definition in the dictionary is the same as the typical RPG usages.

In many RPGs, “move” means movement, as in “my character moves 30 feet.” It doesn’t mean “move the story along” like it does in PbtA games. And it doesn’t help that some moves are like other games’ skills, some are like special abilities, and some are completely unlike things you’d see in trad games.
 

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Right, you can hack D&D in various ways, and you end up with 'Other D&D'. I'm not sure why that's taken to be flexibility. As soon as you go much out into the vast universe of the RPG world, my perception is that D&D is just one tiny niche and its system is not good for much else!

But to clarify, I don't think any system is very general.

I think it is taken more as a fun challenge. Once you embrace that it is basically fitting the genre to D&D, rather than the other way around, it leads to very interesting results (though you can push the boundary in the other direction IMO: it isn't OSR but d20 Call of Cthulhu did some interesting things here as I recall). I think part of it is realizing something fundamentally works about D&D itself. Not everyone will agree with that of, course, but then taking that idea and finding away to make other genres and types of settings fit to it, is the challenge and fun.
 

Also speaking to generic systems. GURPS is not a juggernaut but it is a very long lived RPG. You can hardly dismiss it out of hand. I wouldn't dismiss Savage Worlds either or the system underlying Numenera. You can't state that to be successful you have to meet the largest gorilla on the blocks numbers.
And GURPS has libraries of books for different settings and styles too
 

An encounter doesn’t have to include a threat. A social encounter is an encounter that can be avoided, even though the only threat might be being bored because of dull conversation.

I didn't say an encounter had to include a threat. I said the example you provided... tracks of a potentially hostile group... consisted only of a potential threat and nothing more. It's not really what I think people would consider an encounter. It might lead to one... perhaps the GM has an ambush mapped out with the hostile creatures ready for the PCs only a mile away.

But since you mentioned this example in connection with how it would work in a PbtA type game... that this was a soft move to announce future badness... I don't think of it as an encounter. What's the encounter? It's a hint of a possible threat.

What is there to understand? There is no conflict. As a GM I have to do some prep unless I do 100% improvise. That doesn't mean that I have preplanned goals, outcomes, I don't care what the characters say or do. All it means that if the characters walk into a town I know what's there for them to interact with.

I find there to be conflict. It's not like I'm some noob who doesn't get it. I've been GMing for decades.

So, something that really highlighted this for me was about 5 years ago when the pandemic hit. My group had been playing 5e regularly at that point. I try to run even 5e pretty loosely. I have a big Chessex battle map, and so when the PCs run into trouble of some sort, I draw out a map of the area and we drop minis on it, and we play the combat out.

When the pandemic hit and my group started playing remotely, the requirement of VTT integration was something that really highlighted things for me. I needed to create encounters for the VTT. I needed maps... maps of specific places. I needed stat blocks for the enemies. I needed to load all these into the encounters on the VTT before play would begin. I found that this really clashed with the way I liked to play... where things were loose and not so defined ahead of time.

Now, I realize that I'm saying there is a range of ways to play... and a range to which prep may conflict with player agency, but the extreme circumstances of the pandemic highlighted it for me, and then I started examining the idea in more depth.

Now, you may dismiss this out of hand as not a concern for you, and that's fine. Maybe such a conflict doesn't matter to you. But to say it does not exist... that there is objectively no such conflict? That goes against my experiences.

Because there isn’t. Or rather, there isn’t always.

I prep NPCs with their own interests and goals. The players may choose to interact with those NPCs, or they may not. The fact that there’s an NPC that exists doesn’t force the players to do anything. My Level Up party has no healers. I knew the players were going to a location so I created an NPC cleric and her obvious shrine. The party took damage en route to this location, heard me describe the shrine when I described the location, and didn’t go inside.

Yes, a GM can prep a game and railroad the group. But the GM can also completely improvise and still railroad the group simply by only producing possibilities they want. Heck, I’ve read posts on r/rpghorrorstories that, if true, have players railroading their group by bullying the other players or taking actions that keep the other players from doing what they want. Many people are too conflict-avoidant to say no to this behavior.

We don't need to go to the extremes of railroading to find conflict. There's a whole middle ground where these things can conflict in less severe ways, which may or may not matter to any given group.
 

If you don’t understand that there’s a conflict between the need for prep and player agency, I’m not going to try and convince you.
There is no inherent conflict there. A "need" for prep is simply a matter of a GM's skill and comfortability with improvising. The conflict comes in execution and strict adherence to prep. As long as a GM is willing to deviate from it, including ignoring it outright, then there is no conflict.
 
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In many RPGs, “move” means movement, as in “my character moves 30 feet.” It doesn’t mean “move the story along” like it does in PbtA games. And it doesn’t help that some moves are like other games’ skills, some are like special abilities, and some are completely unlike things you’d see in trad games.
This is a complete tangent, but this just made me realise something I really want to share. In chess on a player's turn you do a "move". This make perfect sense in chess, as you move a piece. My impression was that "move" in PbtA was inspired by this as a word for "something you do when it is your turn in a game".

Then it struck me. In my native language the word we use for what we do during a turn in chess is translated to English a "draw" as in "draw a card". I have never before thought twice about it as I was introduced for this terminology as a very young child. But now I realise it makes absolutely no sense except as a word for a general action you are doing during a game :D

So if ever PbtA games is ever translated to my language I now really hope whoever does that translate "move" to our equivalent of "draw"!
 



I didn't say an encounter had to include a threat. I said the example you provided... tracks of a potentially hostile group... consisted only of a potential threat and nothing more. It's not really what I think people would consider an encounter. It might lead to one... perhaps the GM has an ambush mapped out with the hostile creatures ready for the PCs only a mile away.

But since you mentioned this example in connection with how it would work in a PbtA type game... that this was a soft move to announce future badness... I don't think of it as an encounter. What's the encounter? It's a hint of a possible threat.



I find there to be conflict. It's not like I'm some noob who doesn't get it. I've been GMing for decades.

So, something that really highlighted this for me was about 5 years ago when the pandemic hit. My group had been playing 5e regularly at that point. I try to run even 5e pretty loosely. I have a big Chessex battle map, and so when the PCs run into trouble of some sort, I draw out a map of the area and we drop minis on it, and we play the combat out.

When the pandemic hit and my group started playing remotely, the requirement of VTT integration was something that really highlighted things for me. I needed to create encounters for the VTT. I needed maps... maps of specific places. I needed stat blocks for the enemies. I needed to load all these into the encounters on the VTT before play would begin. I found that this really clashed with the way I liked to play... where things were loose and not so defined ahead of time.

Now, I realize that I'm saying there is a range of ways to play... and a range to which prep may conflict with player agency, but the extreme circumstances of the pandemic highlighted it for me, and then I started examining the idea in more depth.

Now, you may dismiss this out of hand as not a concern for you, and that's fine. Maybe such a conflict doesn't matter to you. But to say it does not exist... that there is objectively no such conflict? That goes against my experiences.

I agree that having to prep maps is annoying, I almost never have predrawn maps for encounters because I don't know when, where or how combat will start much of the time. After a while I had enough generic maps to just drop people in whichever one was close helped. I just don't see how that relates to the discussion.

A sandbox just means the players make decisions that can change the direction of the game, that there's no predetermined outcome. If they've told me that next session they intend to raid Castle Doom, I'll figure out some details for it. How they get past the guards, if they find an alternate way in, if they decide that Castle Doom was too scary and they decide to go to Castle Funtimes instead, it's up to them. If they do the latter I'll likely be doing a lot of improv and the game may not be as smooth but I'll deal with it. Depending on the potential encounters I had planned for Castle Doom and if Castle Funtimes is inhabited by similar monsters/NPCs I may be able to reuse some planned encounters while modifying descriptions, motivations and a few names here and there. For example both could have guards but in Castle Doom they're typical henchmen in black and in Castle Funtimes they're clowns that instead of using javelins are throwing acid-laced pies. But in both cases the stats are close enough so with a minor tweak I reuse the planned combat encounter. Doesn't happen often but it is something I've done in the past.

So I see no conflict, I can't help it if you do but then you're not speaking for everyone.
 

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