D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

As I’ve said, it doesn’t have to be a hostile or combat encounter. A social encounter is an encounter. An exploration challenge is an encounter. If the players follow the tracks and discover a basket of perfectly normal kittens, that’s an encounter. If the GM plans it out ahead of time, it’s an encounter. If they decide GM decides what made the tracks only when and if the PCs actually track it down, that’s still an encounter.

And no, this works with any game, not just AW. In BW, if the players decide to follow the tracks and, die rolls and GM permitting, find out who or what made them, then that’s an encounter. If they decide to ignore the tracks and continue onwards, they have bypassed it.

I think the 2024 DMG is much better written and while the text on creating adventures doesn't explicitly call out sandboxes but they do talk about giving the players meaningful options and choices and warns against railroads.

As relates to his specific post, here's how they now describe encounters:

Encounters are the individual scenes in the larger story of your adventure. Reduced to fundamentals, an encounter is an objective with an obstacle. It accomplishes one or more of the following:
  • Moving characters closer to achieving a goal
  • Frustrating the characters’ progress toward a goal
  • Revealing new information
Then they talk about a variety of encounter types including combat, exploration and social encounters.
 

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The three-prongs:
1) The players are not given prompts by the GM - players have no clue what to choose to do, and "anything they want" is not a sufficient answer, as one cannot make an informed choice without information.
2) The GM prompts everything in existence in the sandbox - the players are overwhelmed with choices/information.
3) The GM prompts some manageable sublist of everything - the players end up assuming those are the only things available, and the sandbox reduces to "pick a mission I prepare for you" play.

"Q&A" is also not a sufficient answer, as without information, you cannot frame useful questions. The GM is the player's eyes and ears, and so must prime the pump, and that leads to the three prongs, above.

The question is then how to manage to keep focus on player choice, while avoiding the three failure modes above. What are the techniques used?

I think this “trilemma” presumes the GM’s role is a mechanical; input-output, like a flawed algorithm that needs debugging. But in truth, the GM is a participant in the fiction, the primary interface to the world, and a co-creator with the players. Trying to remove collaboration with the GM in the name of increased agency is deeply flawed.

The GM isn’t a vending machine for content; they’re a collaborator, a scene partner, and the players’ interface to the world. Player choice doesn’t happen in a vacuum—it happens in response to how the GM presents the world, reacts to interest, and builds momentum based on what the players engage with. That back-and-forth is what prevents any of these three “failure modes” from being actual failures.

If you try to avoid those modes without the GM as an active collaborator, then yeah, you run into problems. But once you treat the table as a shared creative space, the “trilemma” disappears. It’s not about choosing between too much, too little, or a narrow band of options. It’s about active communication and building together.

We shouldn’t try to minimize the GM in pursuit of some idealized notion of total player agency. We should recognize that the GM is a human player at the table too, and treat them accordingly. Pretending the GM is a mechanical servant to player choice is the foundational error here.
 

I think it is taken more as a fun challenge. Once you embrace that it is basically fitting the genre to D&D, rather than the other way around, it leads to very interesting results (though you can push the boundary in the other direction IMO: it isn't OSR but d20 Call of Cthulhu did some interesting things here as I recall). I think part of it is realizing something fundamentally works about D&D itself. Not everyone will agree with that of, course, but then taking that idea and finding away to make other genres and types of settings fit to it, is the challenge and fun.
Sure! I'm personally a bit skeptical that, say, a Cthulhu game based on a d20 style hi power gain leveling curve is going to very naturally produce the kind of creepy "you are up against things that you cannot even understand, and cannot possibly defeat" which kind of defines the genre. I'd expect something closer to a sort of supers kind of game, or MiB, or something like that to come out of it, but those are interesting in their own right. Plus I'm sure you can hit the basic Mythos lore buttons and such if that's all your after.
 

I think this “trilemma” presumes the GM’s role is a mechanical; input-output, like a flawed algorithm that needs debugging. But in truth, the GM is a participant in the fiction, the primary interface to the world, and a co-creator with the players. Trying to remove collaboration with the GM in the name of increased agency is deeply flawed.

The GM isn’t a vending machine for content; they’re a collaborator, a scene partner, and the players’ interface to the world. Player choice doesn’t happen in a vacuum—it happens in response to how the GM presents the world, reacts to interest, and builds momentum based on what the players engage with. That back-and-forth is what prevents any of these three “failure modes” from being actual failures.

If you try to avoid those modes without the GM as an active collaborator, then yeah, you run into problems. But once you treat the table as a shared creative space, the “trilemma” disappears. It’s not about choosing between too much, too little, or a narrow band of options. It’s about active communication and building together.

We shouldn’t try to minimize the GM in pursuit of some idealized notion of total player agency. We should recognize that the GM is a human player at the table too, and treat them accordingly. Pretending the GM is a mechanical servant to player choice is the foundational error here.
I have been expressly told that it is NOT a shared creative space.

It is exclusively the creative space of the GM. Period. No collaboration. None. Zero. AnotherGuy even emphasized that collaboration is something they do which differs from the typical.

So, is this wrong? As I said I had thought I had been told in no uncertain terms that collaboration was completely unacceptable. The world belongs, 100% entirely, to the GM. In the ideal presentation, the player is responsible/culpable for events that develop in response to their actions (or lack of actions), and the GM ensures that player choices are respected to the highest degree possible, but the actual contents of the world are entirely the GM's responsibility. Have I been misinformed or operating on a mistaken understanding?
 

Two people, with good intent, can still miscommunicate.
I am not saying his intentions are bad. I saying, I think I have an understanding now of what his concerns are, and while I have solutions to those concerns that work for me, I have to concede, they likely won't work for him. At least in terms of trad sandbox as I explained to him in my post. If I were to give him a solution, it would be what I said before, which is ACKS or something like it, may have an approach to trad that could potentially be a better fit, but I think it is likely what he wants is not something a trad living world sandbox is generally going to provide
 

Sure! I'm personally a bit skeptical that, say, a Cthulhu game based on a d20 style hi power gain leveling curve is going to very naturally produce the kind of creepy "you are up against things that you cannot even understand, and cannot possibly defeat" which kind of defines the genre. I'd expect something closer to a sort of supers kind of game, or MiB, or something like that to come out of it, but those are interesting in their own right. Plus I'm sure you can hit the basic Mythos lore buttons and such if that's all your after.
You should take a look at the d20 Cthulhu. It addresses this issue and turns it into a feature to customize the style you want. Also the gm advice is quite good IMO. But YMMV. What sold me was running it for several campaigns
 

Party meets in a tavern. GM describes the tavern and notes that one of the patrons is an old man with one arm. This is understood by many old-school GMs as ample information for the party to know that the old man with one arm is an essential source of information that cannot be ignored. I--if I had not been explicitly told this by such GMs--would never have seen it as such, and would just have interpreted that old man as colorful background, a cool bit of set-dressing. These GMs have explicitly informed me that failing to talk to the one-armed old man would be a major--likely fatal--mistake.
What? This seems like such a limited view point. To say X always equals Y is just not good game play, story telling or really anything else.

This example is way to vague. To say "well any humanoid with a beard has a quest for your characters" is just silly.

Now, sure there are some times like " the cave is full of broken skeletons laying all over the place" that do hint "this might be a dangerous place", but that is different as it is not an automatic answer.
 

In real life, I'm not dependent on getting 100% of my information secondhand, and having every single one of my choices filtered through the judgment and evaluation of another person. I'm the one in control of how informed I am. Yes, I must sometimes (indeed, frequently!) trust the expertise of others--but I can review that expertise and judge entirely for myself whether it affords someone authority on a subject or not.
I don't see that rather gauzy (IMO) veil as being a real impediment to having enough agency to float my boat. I simply don't see these issues as the enormous obstacles you seem to. I hope you play games where you don't have to worry about these things.
 

Do players earn XP for "bypassed" encounters?

I would argue that those they do not earn XP for are bypassed. Those they do earn XP for--regardless of the method by which they obtained that experience, assuming it is commensurate with other approaches--were not bypassed.
i believe at some point upthread it was mentioned in earlier editions the guide for earning EXP is something to the effect of 'the players gain EXP for encounters they intentionally/knowingly bypass equal to as if they had faced it directly, ones they do so by accident/unknowingly don't provide EXP'

if that's inaccurate someone can correct me but i think that's the spirit and the gist of it.
 

.... even more of a sandbox than the "traditonal GM" approach being discussed here.
This is subjective. I haven't said one approach is better than the other or not. For me, I think the trad approach gives me more of the kind of agency I want, but it isn't for everyone. I think both approaches have their upsides and downsides, and both are going to click with some people and not with others. It isn't really a competition between the two approaches in my view
 

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