D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

In game texts I have really only seen bypassing encounters addressed in regard to games where you specifically receive XP for overcoming combat challenges. There is a bit of combat being the assumed form of conflict in some more conventional games (D&D 3e to 5e, Pathfinder, Iron Kingdoms, etc.) It's really only worth covering in games where it has an impact on experience and/or resource attrition.
 

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I have been expressly told that it is NOT a shared creative space.

It is exclusively the creative space of the GM. Period. No collaboration. None. Zero. AnotherGuy even emphasized that collaboration is something they do which differs from the typical.

So, is this wrong? As I said I had thought I had been told in no uncertain terms that collaboration was completely unacceptable. The world belongs, 100% entirely, to the GM. In the ideal presentation, the player is responsible/culpable for events that develop in response to their actions (or lack of actions), and the GM ensures that player choices are respected to the highest degree possible, but the actual contents of the world are entirely the GM's responsibility. Have I been misinformed or operating on a mistaken understanding?

In short, I do not agree with the vision you laid out. It doesn’t reflect how I view this hobby, or why I value it. I disagree with many in this thread. Others may feel differently, but to me, the heart of TTRPGs is collaboration.

That doesn’t mean every player gets to dictate world lore, or that the GM has to yield authorship of their prep. It means we treat each other with mutual respect. The GM builds a world, but they build it for us. Players make choices, but they do so in a world that deserves care and consistency. The game works because we trust each other to be good stewards of one another’s contributions.

If a GM wants to completely shut the door on player input; never taking cues, never responding to interest, I think something gets lost. And the same is true for players who treat the GM’s work as disposable. My mother once told my brothers and I, "play nice" and I think that applies here. We’re telling a story together, not competing to see whose vision "wins."

We should work together, respect each other, and have a great time doing it. Open communication and a mindset centered on shared fun are, in my view, the only path to a healthy table culture.

So yes, the table is a shared creative space, where communication and mutual respect are vital.
 
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I'm not talking about the GM just announcing random information to the party without effort.

I'm talking about people discussing this style, who have more than once told me that it's simply, flatly, not possible to detail ANY kind of procedure or process or technique or what-have-you beyond (a) pure ineffable intuition, or (b) extremely abstract terms like "realism" and "plausibility" and the like. Yet here we are, with very little effort from either of us, and we've already pointed out two procedures that might make a very big difference, and which invite significant discussion about how it would be done, best practices, pitfalls to avoid, guidelines, codifiable principles, etc.
I am not sure what two procedures you have in mind?

There has already been mentioned a lot of practices, pitfalls to avoid, guidelines etc previously. For instance "don't prep character reactions, prep character motivations" is non obvious and a realy strong technique to make the world reactive to a wide range of player inputs.

If you have in mind about talking with the group in advance as a "procedure" that feels a bit like if you ask how to walk, and you somehow feel astonished that noone had pointed out to you that it might be a good idea to get out of the chair first early in the conversation. It just seem so obvious to anyone experienced that it should go without saying.

If you think about my suggestion to keep in mind avoiding introducing unintended effective sequences, that feels a bit like suggesting using knee protection while walking - it might make the process slightly safer, but is quite inconvenient, and far from essential to the core activity.

So it is really a bit hard to find new things to introduce that is central to the activity at hand. I feel like there are a lot of answers telling you how you put one foot in front of the other, but that you are frustrated in that this doesn't seem to get you any closer to making your robot able to walk.

However it is important to keep in mind when you talk that - even though the general public you are talking with here are might not able to help you make your robot walk, that doesn't mean that they are not able to walk excellently themselves - or even worse begin questioning if walking is indeed possible at all? Indeed I think we might have world class speed walkers in here and I am actually amazed with their patience in trying to provide the help they can regarding how you could train to become a better walker. Unfortunately a training program meant for humans are likely not going to help your robot very much..
 

In short, I do not agree with the vision you laid out. It doesn’t reflect how I view this hobby, or why I value it. I disagree with many in this thread. Others may feel differently, but to me, the heart of TTRPGs is collaboration.

That doesn’t mean every player gets to dictate world lore, or that the GM has to yield authorship of their prep. It means we treat each other with mutual respect. The GM builds a world, but they build it for us. Players make choices, but they do so in a world that deserves care and consistency. The game works because we trust each other to be good stewards of one another’s contributions.

If a GM wants to completely shut the door on player input; never taking cues, never responding to interest, I think something gets lost. And the same is true for players who treat the GM’s work as disposable. My mother once told my brothers and I, "play nice" and I think that applies here. We’re telling a story together, not competing to see whose vision "wins."

We should work together, respect each other, and have a great time doing it. Open communication and a mindset centered on shared fun are, in my view, the only path to a healthy table culture.

So yes, the table is a shared creative space, where communication and mutual respect are vital.

When it comes to world creation, I prefer that the GM does almost all of it if I'm a player. I want to discover and explore. Unless it's some background stuff, I have no interest in that side of it and even with background stuff I want to ensure that it fits into the GM's vision. I've never had a player that expressed a different expectation, even if some play other games with a different approach.

Meanwhile in the current campaign I'm running the players decided that they were interested in pursuing a goal that I had never anticipated. This new direction pretty much invalidates some things I was thinking would be options for the future and that I had slowly been building towards. But they chose a different path so now I'm figuring out how to make that happen and how to keep it interesting and evolving. It would have been simple for me to shut down their goal in many ways, I didn't because I'm not running the game for me. I'm running the campaign for my players and their priorities and goals will always outweigh mine.
 

In short, I do not agree with the vision you laid out. It doesn’t reflect how I view this hobby, or why I value it. I disagree with many in this thread. Others may feel differently, but to me, the heart of TTRPGs is collaboration.

That doesn’t mean every player gets to dictate world lore, or that the GM has to yield authorship of their prep. It means we treat each other with mutual respect. The GM builds a world, but they build it for us. Players make choices, but they do so in a world that deserves care and consistency. The game works because we trust each other to be good stewards of one another’s contributions.

If a GM wants to completely shut the door on player input; never taking cues, never responding to interest, I think something gets lost. And the same is true for players who treat the GM’s work as disposable. My mother once told my brothers and I, "play nice" and I think that applies here. We’re telling a story together, not competing to see whose vision "wins."

We should work together, respect each other, and have a great time doing it. Open communication and a mindset centered on shared fun are, in my view, the only path to a healthy table culture.

So yes, the table is a shared creative space, where communication and mutual respect are vital.
Of course it is a colaboration! But as a DM I am still sitting alone, seeing in my notes that there is a member of the thief guild in the tavern, and need to decide if I should draw attention to that character or not. I cannot ask my fellow players to make that decission with me, as that would invalidate the dilemma. That choice is my duty as DM to make, and the trajectory of the entire story might heavily rest on that decission. This question cannot be trivialized into a simple "this is colaborative, we figure it out togetter". It is a real burden we DMs has to bear as keeper of secrets, holder of mysteries, and the player's sole window to truth. As such good guidance how to handle this might be very welcome indeed for a budding DM wanting to test their feet in a play style where this kind of decissions really matters.
 
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You decide to go to the store. But before you enter, the store has you blindfolded, puts noise-cancelling earphones over your ears, and puts mandatory boxing gloves on your hands... (snip)

I think this reveals a fundamental difference in how we each manage our campaigns. Earlier in the thread, I explained how influential my experience running LARP events was on my tabletop refereeing. Reading your post clarified what might be a core difference in how we approach player autonomy and information.

While my elements of my living worlds sandbox campaigns include things I learned from wargaming and early D&D, my current approach came together through years of organizing and running live-action events, especially NERO-style boffer LARPs.

At a LARP, you aren’t blindfolded, muffled, or restricted. You see what you see, hear what you hear, and act accordingly. As the event director, I’d set the adventure up, terrain, NPCs, props, then step back. I might have staff playing NPCs enter on a trigger or schedule, but control past that point was non-existent. Crucially, player situational awareness was based on what they observed directly.

In those events, we had Marshals, rule referees independent of the event plot staff. They ensured adjudication was consistent and impartial. When I ran events as director, I had no special authority to override the rules as written in live action.

That experience directly shaped my Living World Sandbox style. I don’t tell players what’s going on, I show them.

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Everything from faction actions to NPC motivations is driven by showing not telling the players the situation they are in. In-game, I use first-person roleplaying for NPCs and rely heavily on visual representation to communicate their circumstance. This isn't just for flavor, it’s a method to reduce second-hand interpretation and reinforce agency. To use pen, paper, & dice, to give the players the same situational awareness they would have at a LARP event.

This is why your metaphor of the blindfolded shopper doesn’t apply to my campaigns. My players aren’t limited to what I choose to narrate; I immerse them visually and interactively. As a result they observe for themselves what their character is experiencing.

My players can, and do, track what they were shown against what was in my notes. This creates accountability. They can compare what they were shown, and to what I was suppose to have shown.

I understand my approach will raise additional questions and I will be happy to answer them.

One that comes up often is how I do this without bogging down play. I’ve solved that with a modular toolkit of terrain, props, and fallback materials:

Pre-built sets are rare; most setups are improvised on the fly:
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For wilderness I use tiles:
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Everything is organized to deploy as fast as I could describe it in words:
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When traveling, I use dry-erase boards and tokens.

On VTTs, I apply another suite of visual techniques.

Admittedly, the actual play with @Bedrockgames doesn’t show this well, we had to rely on voice-only. But there’s a video of me running a Shadowdark demo that shows how I apply this visually online. It’s a simple three-hour demo, but it captures the principle.

To sum up: in my campaigns, you’re not shopping blindfolded with earplugs and gloves. You’re walking the aisles with your own eyes, hearing the world around you, and sometimes are even able to actually touch the goods. If you miss something, it’s not because I hid it, it’s because you didn’t take notice of what I laid out before you.

So, no, I don't accept that there's an analogy here... (snip)

I hope this reply makes clear that in my sandbox, player situational awareness is structured with a strong bias toward direct presentation rather than mediated fiat, avoiding many of the issues being raised. Because I rely heavily on first-person roleplaying and visual tools to reinforce what the players perceive, this leads to greater player confidence. They’re more willing to take risks and act proactively because they can trust that their understanding of the situation is grounded and reasonable.

And yes, I know I haven’t responded to your earlier post yet. I’m in the middle of writing my reply, but when I saw this exchange, I realized it raises an important point that may help clarify the response I’m drafting. I’ll be revising that reply to reflect this post.

Lastly, the way I developed this approach was partially due to circumstance, good luck or bad, depending on how you see it. I have significant partial deafness. While hearing aids help, they’re far from perfect in noisy environments, like a table full of excited kids playing D&D. So when I refereed, I often relied on dry-erase boards, tiles, and minis to let players physically show me what their characters were doing. There were just too many misunderstandings otherwise, and this method resolved the issue over the long term.

Because of that, I learned how to use maps and minis quickly and effectively, what works, what doesn’t. That experience laid the groundwork for applying what I’d learned from running LARP events to the tabletop.
 
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Of course it is a colaboration! But as a DM I am still sitting alone, seeing in my notes that there is a member of the thief guild in the tavern, and need to decide if I should draw attention to that character or not. I cannot ask my fellow players to make that decission with me, as that would invalidate the dilemma. That choice is my duty as DM to make, and the trajectory of the entire story might heavily rest on that decission. This question cannot be trivialized into a simple "this is colaborative, we figure it out togetter". It is a real burden we DMs has to bear as keeper of secrets, holder of mysteries, and the player's sole window to truth. As such good guidance how to handle this might be very welcome indeed for a budding DM wanting to test their feet in a play style where this kind of decissions really matters.

You can't co-author everything. DMs need, and are given, full ability to make decisions on their own without player input. That’s vital for smooth play, especially in a 5e-style system.

But that doesn’t negate the collaborative nature of the hobby. The DM bears the burden of those decisions, but does so with respect for the table and its shared goals. It's not collaboration in the sense that we vote on outcomes or crowdsource every scene. It’s collaboration in the sense that each person works to further the fun, tone, and expectations we’ve all agreed on. A healthy table culture depends on trusting each other to carry out our respective roles in good faith.

Your choice about that thief isn’t made in a vacuum. It’s shaped by what your players care about, the pacing of the session, and the kind of story you’ve all bought into. That’s a kind of dialogue, even if it happens in your notes.

So no. I don't think calling it "collaborative" trivializes anything. I think it honors the trust you're putting into your players, and the trust they put in you. You are working together, through a mutual understanding, to tell a story that satisfies everyone at the table.
 

I think Q&A is an adequate solution for me and for most peopke who engage this style. That is effectively the players eyes and ears. You still have to consider initial presentation, which POV plus potential passive rolls can consider. But the whole point is to let the players help direct things by saying what they are looking for.

So, I think I see part of the issue: The players don't know what they don't know.

There is typically some minimum of information a player needs to have in order to make informed decisions and have wants and desires. Before they have that minimum information, they cannot generally be expected to know what they are looking for to ask for it!

So, while you feel like that answers the question, it doesn't really address the initialization. And it gets worse when you start talking about "passive rolls" - because in this context, failure to make a roll (passive or otherwise) is failure to even find adventure!

I can give a more detailed answer when I get back. But this is why I said sandbox probably isn’t a good fit for Ezekiel: because the solutions are going to be good enough for most people who run sandbox but I think he wants a level of detail you would need VR for.

I think the "VR" thing is an overshoot. It is also aside the point - what ER would like and why or why not, is not the question. They didn't ask anyone's opinion on what they'd like! So, inserting that is not an answer.

But if I were a salesman

You're not being asked to be a salesman. Nobody is buying from you here.

I can understand some of ER's frustration, though, because I think the way folks talk about it is... over glamorizing it a bit? There's a simple practical answer (between my own experience running traditional sandboxes, and how folks talk here) that covers most of the ground:

This is largely a Skilled Play issue.

How players and GMs manage in a traditional sandbox is established over time by learning how each other work, and playing to it - so it is kind of idiosyncratic, and sometimes difficult to clearly articulate, as it isn't a clear process-based solution. And, those skills don't work perfectly all the time, nor do they work instantaneously. Compared to some other forms of play, there is, especially early in a campaign, a certain amount of "muddling about" in traditional sandbox play before players find a solid direction they want to go in.

If we go into the trilemma with the understanding that the players and GM already know a lot about how each other works, then how they can stay out of the failure modes is more understandable. And it also describes how many sandboxes fail - early, before that shared knowledge is established, those failure modes are much more likely to appear.

So, for example, my own players have low tolerance for "muddling about" looking for elements they want to engage in - we only play about twice a month, weekday evening sessions, so they have a high desire to get to clear action. As a group, they also tend to suffer from option paralysis and over-analysis. Thus, they don't ask me to run traditional sandboxes.
 

When it comes to world creation, I prefer that the GM does almost all of it if I'm a player. I want to discover and explore. Unless it's some background stuff, I have no interest in that side of it and even with background stuff I want to ensure that it fits into the GM's vision. I've never had a player that expressed a different expectation, even if some play other games with a different approach.

Meanwhile in the current campaign I'm running the players decided that they were interested in pursuing a goal that I had never anticipated. This new direction pretty much invalidates some things I was thinking would be options for the future and that I had slowly been building towards. But they chose a different path so now I'm figuring out how to make that happen and how to keep it interesting and evolving. It would have been simple for me to shut down their goal in many ways, I didn't because I'm not running the game for me. I'm running the campaign for my players and their priorities and goals will always outweigh mine.

This is a great example of what I mean by collaboration. It’s not about co-authoring every detail—it’s about the GM creating a world with room for the players to shape the story through their choices. Your decision to follow the players’ lead, even when it wasn’t what you’d planned, reflects that spirit of mutual respect and responsiveness that’s core to a healthy table culture, in my opinion.

I think a lot of people try to treat this as a binary, like if you give something to the DM, it takes something away from the players. But it’s not a zero-sum game. We’re working together toward a shared goal, and the more we trust each other to contribute in good faith, the better the experience is for everyone at the table.
 

In game texts I have really only seen bypassing encounters addressed in regard to games where you specifically receive XP for overcoming combat challenges. There is a bit of combat being the assumed form of conflict in some more conventional games (D&D 3e to 5e, Pathfinder, Iron Kingdoms, etc.) It's really only worth covering in games where it has an impact on experience and/or resource attrition.
Previous to 2e XP from combat in D&D was a rounding error, unless the GM was extremely stingy with treasure to a degree which would warp several aspects of play.

The case is slightly less clear in 2e as the XP rewards are more subjective.
 

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