D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But...games and stories are not the same
Who said they are? I was responding to a post that was saying that AW is intended to emulate or yield "cinematic fiction". And I was disagreeing with that claim.

You stepped into that discussion to put forth a particular notion of "cinematic fiction", that - for the reasons given in my post that you just quoted - I disagreed with.

With lots of help from the system and espoused design philosophy to make sure the unfolding events are exciting and character-defining.
You say this as if it's a bad thing that the rules of a game that is based around shared fiction reliably produce exciting fiction.

Whereas my response is much closer to Eero Tuovinen's:

he fun in these games from the player’s viewpoint comes from the fact that he can create an amazing story with nothing but choices made in playing his character; this is the holy grail of rpg design, this is exactly the thing that was promised to me in 1992 in the MERP rulebook.​

For MERP to deliver this, if played by the principles that its rulebook states, the GM has to decide to inject interesting stuff. The upshot becomes GM-driven play. Or else you can drift MERP to be more like BW, which is what I was did (with varying degrees of success) for 19 years.
 

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Nothing wrong for whom? I can tell you that I think "nothing happens" is pretty unexciting. If I sit down to play a classic dungeon crawl, I expect some of that sort of thing. But it's also why I don't sit down to play classic dungeon crawls very often.
Nothing objectively wrong. As in, you cannot simply say, as some have, that simple failure is universally to be avoided in RPGs.
 

I'm not familiar with RuneQuest but can you please provide an example by what you believe is more grounded about the PC expression or action resolution in RQ? I suspect it may be a lower magic setting too than D&D.

It generally is. But there are other factors that produce the more grounded feeling (you have nothing like level elevating hit points for example; it represents improving defense by something more analogous to improving armor class in D&D (though not really) and there are other elements that D&D abstracts it does so to a much lesser degree).

But Pemerton may have other things in mind.
 

There is no misreading. @Campbell is noting that Monsterhearts is intended to support narrativist play, whereas Monster of the Week is intended to support genre emulation, either GM-driven or perhaps GM-player collaboration. (In the lexicion that gave us "narrativist", it would probably be labelled "high concept simulationist". Independently of that lexicon, MotW can be seen to be closer to Fate than to AW in the sort of RPGing it supports.)

My question was regarding the emphasis on Complication accumulation; Campbell was talking about my suggestion regarding the reasons for that, so I was, indeed, misreading him.
 

But it's not true that, if a game is never boring, than it is never interesting either. I can get my full share of tedium from (eg) waiting at traffic lights, or standing in line at the supermarket.
So we're back to, "I just don't like to play that way". If people could just say that without implying that there way is better in a more than personal sense this thread would be a lot shorter.
 

I'm not familiar with RuneQuest but can you please provide an example by what you believe is more grounded about the PC expression or action resolution in RQ? I suspect it may be a lower magic setting too than D&D.
Lower magic. PCs tend to have a profession - not an adventuring class - that informs their range of skills. The game is oriented towards the creation of less gonzo settlements, cultures, religions, etc.

Look at my set-up for The Fighter and The Fishterman. It's hard to make that work in D&D. It's pretty effortless in Burning Wheel to create those characters, with meaningful stakes and things to do that will be exciting and engaging at the table.
 

There is no misreading. @Campbell is noting that Monsterhearts is intended to support narrativist play, whereas Monster of the Week is intended to support genre emulation, either GM-driven or perhaps GM-player collaboration. (In the lexicion that gave us "narrativist", it would probably be labelled "high concept simulationist". Independently of that lexicon, MotW can be seen to be closer to Fate than to AW in the sort of RPGing it supports.)
MotW was the only PBtA game I enjoyed, but the parts that reminded me of FATE (particularly the aspects) were what I liked least about it.
 

The sarcasm here is subtle, but I think I see it.
I don't know if @robertsconley is being sarcastic or not. But his repeated references to "story arcs" and "stories planned in advance" and the like, as if those are reasonable descriptions of Apocalpyse World or Burning Wheel, are a little frustrating.

The difference between an OD&D hexcrawl and (say) Burning Wheel can't be identified by focusing on whether or not there is a planned story. The differences are in the procedures that govern GM decision-making about (i) when to call for rolls, and (ii) the results of rolls.

Which is something that I have emphasised for years now on these boards.
 

Because I've seen seen plenty of people treat it as so? That doesn't mean they're going to go to the trouble of addressing it, or don't think its serving other purposes. But I can promise I've never seen and rarely heard of people who think repeated failed search rolls are are either interesting or worthwhile.
You don't have to praise a mechanic to not have a problem with it. I see no reason why you can't have simple failure. It happens in the real world all the time.
 


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