D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Absolutely. It likely will involve something important between or to the characters, and so it's likely interesting to explore that.

Like, the lack of explosions or swordplay doesn't make something uninteresting.



"Ask questions and build on the answers" is definitely great advice. I think it's one of the great elements about games like Blades or Stonetop. It often is misunderstood to be "grant full authorial control to players", but I think it's something that can easily be ported over to D&D, as well.



Do you want your players to sit through stretches of play that they'd find boring? Do you want them to merely tolerate much of the game rather than being engaged by it?



Really? Earlier you said that you as GM aren't there just to enable the players' fun. This comment here would seem to potentially conflict with that.

I am all for the players doing whatever they want... but if it's aimless wandering or just in-character fluff with no real stakes or pathos, then I'm only gonna tolerate it so long before I move things along.
What I want is for the players to explore the world as they see fit through their PCs. That's all. I have said this many times. I presume that, when choice allows, they will do this in a way that is fun for them. Sometimes a particular activity or situation won't have fun results, because life is like that sometimes, and in many ways (but obviously not all ways) imitating life is a big draw for me in the hobby, related to my favorite part of RPGs, which is building logical and interesting fantasy settings for the players to explore through their PCs. I see no contradiction in that.
 

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I thought the GM should also not feel obligated to facilitate play they don't enjoy? If a couple of the players want to do things that I find unenjoyable (stakeless shopping expedition #137), can't I simply montage that and move on to something everybody enjoys together?
I would assume you work that out together. For a more general exploration of my philosophy, see my response to @hawkeyefan above.
 

Sure, as long as it’s acknowledged that you’re putting your thumb on the scale so the campaign reflects your creative agenda as well as the players’.

And since you’re the referee, that gives you an effective veto, regardless of what the system claims, because without you, the campaign doesn’t happen.

That’s why it’s a bit hypocritical to criticize traditional play for giving the referee too much authority, when the systems meant to “fix” that still rely on the referee for the very thing you just described.

But this isn’t a “gotcha.” It circles back to a point I’ve made before: systems alone can’t solve this problem. What does is a shared commitment to good leadership and good sportsmanship, players and referees working together to make the campaign a fun and rewarding experience for everyone involved.

Authority over the outcome of the player's actions vs authority over the fiction and scene setting is very different. I know we've belabored this a whole bunch. When we've set stakes for a roll, on a success I can't negate those stakes; likewise the players should look at me and demand a Hard Move that fits the fiction on a 6- because they want to see that.

When we Outfit in Stonetop, we may Trade and Barter if the players want stuff that's not normally available to them; that has defined mechanical triggers and outcomes. We may also just zoom out and run through some trading off a list of available stuff at a nearby town, because nothing is really at stake there.

Also it's so weird to see somebody use "leadership" in a TTRPG table circumstance. Nothing I've done as a GM has ever felt like the leadership I'm expected to demonstrate in my professional and previous uniformed career, and I think that's a good thing.
 

I would assume you work that out together. For a more general exploration of my philosophy, see my response to @hawkeyefan above.

Gotcha, that makes sense from your perspective. Since I don't play games to imitate the banality of life, but instead take advantage of the techniques of scene framing / spotlighting / montages / etc to focus in on what we all share an interest and excitement in, I can see our disconnect in preference here.

You've also noted that you find designing / worldbuilding often more rewarding and enjoyable then playing right?
 

If success is actually impossible, then you wouldn't roll at all.

But you're doing the rather typical thing of openly taking the least-charitable possible interpretation and presuming it must be true to skewer it, rather than asking, "Wait, does that mean success is guaranteed?"
The poster to whom I was replying specifically said (paraphrased from memory) if there's no consequences for failure, just give them the success rather than roll for it.

And yet sometimes the true consequence of failure is simply that you didn't succeed - it's the success that has consequences, and you didn't achieve it. You didn't find the main treasure hoard. You didn't find the hidden slave pens. You didn't climb the cliff and now have to go 40 miles out of your way to get to the top.
And that is a pretty boring consequence. I find it rather frustrating to see people hold it up as though it were some awesome achievement of gameplay that you made people jump through hoops in order for literally nothing to actually happen.
They jumped through those hoops in the hopes that something would happen. It wasn't guaranteed.
No, it isn't. On both counts.

Specifically, you are conflating two different kinds of "frustrating." On the one hand, there is, "I, the character, am trying to succeed, and not reaching success". That, I agree, is the point of rolls. But it's not the point of rolls where the only results are "things proceed without issue" or "nothing happens and we just spent the past 2-5 minutes literally not seeing anything happen", which is frustrating from the, "I, the player, have just wasted several minutes of time literally achieving nothing whatsoever, not bad, not good, nothing."

The former type of frustration is a good thing, and should happen with a reasonable frequency. (Different people, obviously, disagree on "reasonable" frequency. I'm pretty confident your threshold is much, MUCH lower than mine, for example. But the idea that there is a threshold isn't in question between us.) The latter is bad and should be avoided as much as possible.
If you're inhabiting your character as its player then the two types of frustration - in-fiction and at-table - should align very closely, thus making it difficult-to-impossible to have one without the other.
I'm fairly confident that is not true, because there are at least three other options. One, no chance of failure, unless you force characters to roll to check to make sure they can walk across rooms, open doors, shave without decapitating themselves, etc. Two, where neither success nor failure actually matters in any way whatsoever. And three, where the action in question isn't a matter of success or failure, but rather degree of success only (this is rare, but consider for example magic missile, which, AIUI, explicitly doesn't use an attack roll nor a saving throw in any edition. That's something where you ask for a roll, the attack just hits...or just misses, if the target throws up shield in time.)
1 - in all cases here I'm assuming the task or intent in question is something where neither success nor failure is guaranteed.

2 - whether or not something matters often isn't evident until well after the fact; in the moment, we have to assume it all matters

3 - degree of success is tangential; for me the roll can inform degree of success in some situations, while others are pretty much a binary pass-fail.
I mean, in my experience, it holds up extremely well, on both ends of the table.

Failure is still failure, it just means SOMETHING happens. The world continues spinning. Maybe you """succeed""" in a way that is completely hollow, like "you found the secret entrance eventually, but by the time you were done, the cultists were LONG gone and knew not to leave evidence behind because they could hear you the entire time." Maybe you fail, and now that's created a problem: "In trying to disarm the trap, you've not only set it off, you seem to have triggered some kind of deeper, more magical defense system. That's...really really not good. You can hear strange noises in the distance. That's probably worse."
And if the fiction is set up that way with layers of defenses, alarms, etc., that's great.

Problem is, it's not always set up that way. Sometimes the only consequence of failing to disarm a trap is "nothing happens" other than the trap remains in place as a potential threat.
If failure would contribute literally nothing whatsoever to the experience of play other than delaying the party's next effort, what is the point of rolling? Like seriously. If literally nothing comes of failure--not even expending resources, genuinely actually nothing happens--why should you roll? Save the rolling for when it's actually interesting to fail, and interesting to succeed. Rolling to avoid trivial stupid failure like "you walked across the room wrong and flung yourself at the floor" isn't helpful, and there are a LOT of things I've seen GMs ask for rolls about that really should not have required anything of the kind.
Let's take a trapped lock as an example, DC 12. There's a perhaps-simplified range of possible outcomes on an attempt to disarm the trap:

1 - trap disarmed no problem (14-20)
2 - trap disarmed but doing so made the lock unusable (success with complication e.g. the acid that was supposed to melt the thief's fingers melted the lock instead) (12-13)
3 - trap not disarmed but is still there as a threat (i.e. nothing happens) (5-11)
4 - trap is set off (thus requiring possible resource/spell use to fix the consequences) (1-4)

A true-binary roll here would only have 1 and 3 as possible outcomes, or maybe 1 and 4. The way I'd rather do it, though, includes the whole range of outcomes and gets there by only one roll (plus maybe a saving throw if needed on the '4' outcome).

Note however that the fail-success break point remains at 11-12 - success with complication still needs that root 'success' roll in order to occur.
 

So when players are engaged in what they want to do, even if it's aimless wandering or just in-character fluff with no real stakes or pathos, you step in and "move things along" if it doesn’t meet your standard for dramatic weight?

Not just mine, but also the other folks at the table. And it's not about dramatic weight... stop trying to shoehorn the drama angle into things. It's about play that is interesting and has stakes.

Have we not all had someone who wants to speak in character to the innkeeper or some other NPC at length in a rather aimless way while everyone else is just watching, waiting for something to happen?

That sounds less like freedom and creative collaboration and more like conditional permission. Players can do what they want, as long as it creates the kind of stakes you deem valid.

Isn't that just another form of authorial control, dressed up as openness?

No, not really. Generally, my players aren't going to aimlessly wander in most games. It becomes more of an issue in more trad-leaning games because the instinct fostered by traditional thinking is to follow the characters at length and to never skip over any time at all. I don't like that approach to play, even when I'm playing something more trad-leaning. I'm going to skip ahead at times. I'm going to say "okay let's move things along". I'm going to ask "what is it you're trying for here" to bring things to a point.

What I'm not going to do is let a player be self-indulgent to the point that play is tedious for anyone else.

You often describe the role of the GM as one involving leadership... and though I generally don't agree, based on your take, I wouldn't think this would be that strange to you. A GM should be facilitating play. To me, part of that is to make sure that things remain interesting.

One of the way I think is best to address this kind of thing... because the spotlight will rotate at times... is to keep whatever is happening for one or two characters to be interesting to all the players, including the GM. That usually means some kind of stakes or importance.

Watching another player dicker with an NPC shopkeeper about prices makes me want to smash my head into the table. Watching another player speak to the ghost of his ancestor that lives in his sword and who has ideas about the characters actions? That's something I want to watch.

What I want is for the players to explore the world as they see fit through their PCs. That's all. I have said this many times. I presume that, when choice allows, they will do this in a way that is fun for them. Sometimes a particular activity or situation won't have fun results, because life is like that sometimes, and in many ways (but obviously not all ways) imitating life is a big draw for me in the hobby, related to my favorite part of RPGs, which is building logical and interesting fantasy settings for the players to explore through their PCs. I see no contradiction in that.

Yes, I know this. But how do you reconcile this with your earlier point that your job is not just to make the players happy. What if they're doing something that isn't satisfying to you in some way? Or maybe two players are into it, but two or three others are not?
 


Authority over the outcome of the player's actions vs authority over the fiction and scene setting is very different. I know we've belabored this a whole bunch. When we've set stakes for a roll, on a success I can't negate those stakes; likewise the players should look at me and demand a Hard Move that fits the fiction on a 6- because they want to see that.

Let’s not reframe the issue. The core fact remains: without you as the referee, the campaign doesn’t happen.

It doesn’t matter what authority the rules distribute or limit, if you dislike the direction the players want to take, you can always walk away. Whether it’s “stakeless shopping expeditions” or any other type of play you don’t enjoy, the result is the same: the campaign ends. That’s a form of power no rules text can override.

Unless you're using a system that flattens all participant roles, like a collaborative storytelling game where no one has special narrative responsibility, the referee's presence remains structurally essential.

Also it's so weird to see somebody use "leadership" in a TTRPG table circumstance. Nothing I've done as a GM has ever felt like the leadership I'm expected to demonstrate in my professional and previous uniformed career, and I think that's a good thing.

It’s not the same kind of leadership as in the military or a professional hierarchy. There, authority is formalized and enforceable. What I’m talking about is the kind of leadership you find in volunteer groups, where people collaborate for shared goals without coercive power. That’s a model I have extensive experience with.

We can compare the styles, but ultimately, it leads to the same conclusion: different types of leadership apply in different contexts. Games, especially campaigns meant to be fun, social, and cooperative, still require leadership. Just not the top-down kind.

As for it being “weird,” I strongly disagree. Leadership means making the right choices at the right time to support a shared endeavor. In games, that might look like facilitating engagement, resolving disputes, or just making sure people are having fun. That is leadership, in every sense that matters.
 

No, not really. Generally, my players aren't going to aimlessly wander in most games. It becomes more of an issue in more trad-leaning games because the instinct fostered by traditional thinking is to follow the characters at length and to never skip over any time at all. I don't like that approach to play, even when I'm playing something more trad-leaning. I'm going to skip ahead at times. I'm going to say "okay let's move things along". I'm going to ask "what is it you're trying for here" to bring things to a point.

I think it was about 500ish pages ago I noted that as of 5.2024 the DMG once again has advice about skipping to interesting stuff / doing scene framing like movies / letting time pass in montages / etc.
 

Not just mine, but also the other folks at the table. And it's not about dramatic weight... stop trying to shoehorn the drama angle into things. It's about play that is interesting and has stakes.

Have we not all had someone who wants to speak in character to the innkeeper or some other NPC at length in a rather aimless way while everyone else is just watching, waiting for something to happen?



No, not really. Generally, my players aren't going to aimlessly wander in most games. It becomes more of an issue in more trad-leaning games because the instinct fostered by traditional thinking is to follow the characters at length and to never skip over any time at all. I don't like that approach to play, even when I'm playing something more trad-leaning. I'm going to skip ahead at times. I'm going to say "okay let's move things along". I'm going to ask "what is it you're trying for here" to bring things to a point.

What I'm not going to do is let a player be self-indulgent to the point that play is tedious for anyone else.

You often describe the role of the GM as one involving leadership... and though I generally don't agree, based on your take, I wouldn't think this would be that strange to you. A GM should be facilitating play. To me, part of that is to make sure that things remain interesting.

One of the way I think is best to address this kind of thing... because the spotlight will rotate at times... is to keep whatever is happening for one or two characters to be interesting to all the players, including the GM. That usually means some kind of stakes or importance.

Watching another player dicker with an NPC shopkeeper about prices makes me want to smash my head into the table. Watching another player speak to the ghost of his ancestor that lives in his sword and who has ideas about the characters actions? That's something I want to watch.

Thanks for the clarification, but I think this cuts to the heart of the issue.

You're saying that you're fine with players doing what they want, until it stops being interesting for you. At that point, you intervene to move things along, skip ahead, or ask players to clarify what they’re “trying for.”

But at that point, it’s not really player-driven play anymore, is it?

It’s play filtered through your lens of what counts as meaningful, engaging, or worthy of spotlight time. That may not feel like “authorial control”, but you're still controlling focus, tone, and pacing based on your standards.

Isn’t that exactly the sort of referee authority you’ve criticized in traditional games?

In my living world sandbox campaigns, players can dicker with a shopkeeper, wander without a plan, or talk to their ghost-sword for as long as they want, not because I think all of it is thrilling, but because I trust that meaning and engagement will emerge from what they care about, not from what I impose.

And if engagement only counts when it passes your threshold for stakes, then the game isn’t shaped by player choice, it’s shaped by your editorial judgment.

So if you're shutting scenes down when they don’t meet that threshold, how is that any different?
 

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