D&D 5E (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

Paul Farquhar · Thursday at 4:42 PM

Scott Christian said:
But I think you are missing the point. If a group showed up, they could spend many sessions just exploring the Keep itself; navigating its politics, befriending people at the Traveller's Inn, helping the priest, gathering rumors

The NPCs barely have names, nevermind personalities, motivations and agendas. So there is nothing for the players to interact with. Sure, you can add that (and I don’t doubt it will be in this new version), but there is nothing in the module to suggest that you do. You could add politics, trade opportunities, all sorts of things to make it a better sandbox. But none of that is actually in the adventure, nor is guidance for new players on how to create it.

From what you say, it sounds like what was good was your DM, not the module.

SpellObjectEnthusiast · Thursday at 5:36 PM

Paul Farquhar said:
it sounds like what was good was your DM, not the module.

Having read a bunch of the classic TSR modules, I imagine that this was always the case when people remark on them fondly.

That, or they were 10 at the time.

Paul Farquhar · Thursday at 5:46 PM

SpellObjectEnthusiast said:
Having read a bunch of the classic TSR modules, I imagine that this was always the case when people remark on them fondly.

That, or they were 10 at the time.

Castle Amber was excellent, but not easy to run.

Mannahnin · Thursday at 5:49 PM

Paul Farquhar said:
Castle Amber was excellent, but not easy to run.

Castle Amber and The Lost City are much-loved examples with great ideas that couldn't really fit into the 28-32 page format. Still eminently playable, but they practically yell at the DM to flesh them out, which is why they were so suitable for OAR expansion.

Paul Farquhar · Thursday at 6:03 PM

Mannahnin said:
Castle Amber and The Lost City are much-loved examples with great ideas that couldn't really fit into the 32 page format. Still eminently playable, but they practically yell at the DM to flesh them out, which is why they were so suitable for OAR expansion.

Yup, as I said, what I’m looking for are ideas, so something in need of fleshing out is ideal for me.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Thursday at 6:14 PM

TSR did a better job with the Keep on the Borderlands model of a hub plus adventuring site with Village of Homlett (even if Gygax goes hilariously over the top in the other direction, telling us how many copper coins a random farmer hides in his barn and where) and the Secret of Bone Hill.

Bone Hill, in particular, is very much a "make your own fun" adventure with a good base, support for getting into mischief in the lord's keep (including a mini-dungeon and treasure vault beneath it), as well as the titular Bone Hill dungeon, including new monster types that for some reason don't get full stat blocks, just a few notes on running them.

The model is great and is still used for good reason today. But B2 wasn't even the best version of it at the time.

Nikosandros · Thursday at 6:47 PM

SpellObjectEnthusiast said:
That, or they were 10 at the time.

Having ran B2 several times as an adult, I obviously disagree.

BTW, it's great that people who disagree with the good opinion about B2 do so in such a respectful manner,

Cadence · Thursday at 7:21 PM

Paul Farquhar said:
The NPCs barely have names, nevermind personalities, motivations and agendas. So there is nothing for the players to interact with. Sure, you can add that (and I don’t doubt it will be in this new version), but there is nothing in the module to suggest that you do. You could add politics, trade opportunities, all sorts of things to make it a better sandbox. But none of that is actually in the adventure, nor is guidance for new players on how to create it.

Here are some related snippets for those who haven't seen the B2 module before. It notes to the DM that several big parts of it were left blank explicitly for them to fill in and hopefully get practice creating their own things later. It leaves a place for the names of the multitude of unnamed NPCs, but I was surprised it didn't specifically call out the need to name and physically describe them like it does some of the other details.

From page 1:

From page 2:

From page 5:

From page 7:

From page 12:

From page 24:

From page 28:

Whizbang Dustyboots · Thursday at 7:32 PM

"You don't need to know the castellan's name, but you 100% need a map of the general store" is ... idiosyncratic.

It'll be interesting to see how much of B2, Return to Keep on the Borderlands and the Borderlands novel show up in this boxed set.

Rystefn · Thursday at 7:40 PM

It's wild to me that someone can say with a straight face that there's nothing to do in KotB except go to the caves and murder everyone there. I've run this module many times, converted it to every edition of D&D that exists to do so, and I've never had a single group of players do this. Even the most murderhobo group I've ever run through it got mixed up in the politics and factions in the caves.

Am I saying that no one ever went in and just systematically murdered everything that moves in the entire cave complex? No. I'm very sure plenty of groups have done that. But I don't believe that it's the standard method, and I can't believe that someone actually read the thing and came away with the idea that it's the only possible mode of play.

D&D 5E (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

Paul Farquhar

Legend

SpellObjectEnthusiast

Adventurer

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator

Cadence

Legend

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero

Rystefn

Explorer

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