Level Up (A5E) Seed Bomb & Cobra's Spit Design

So, spells that give you an attack in 5E tend to specifically state that you can attack on the round you cast the spell. This is true for O5E with spells like Enervation and Witch Bolt, and it has been maintained on A5E on spells like Call Lightning.

This makes Seed Bomb and Cobra's Spit a bit weird, design wise, as they are the only spells I can think of where you basically lose a turn by casting them, as they provide zero benefits until the following turn.

Other spells like Moonbeam and Heat Metal, while different in functionality, also are very much designed with the intention of not making the character waste a turn for the casting.

All this to say, do we know if there is any particular design decision on these two spells, or is it only a design error?

Three years late with a reply. My only guess with Seed Bomb is that anyone can throw them. A PC in the game I DM cast the spell and then the other PCs threw the bombs as it was better than anything else they could do.

The delayed turn in their usage make them more like the Delayed Fireball spell. You don't see their immediate effect until the following turn. Instead, they are meant to catch your foes unaware.

Seed Bomb lasts 1 minute with 4 bombs.

You're meant to cast it out of combat, hand out bombs, then huck 'em at the start of combat to impose negative effects on your enemies.

Mostly Blindness or to create Difficult Terrain, but YMMV. Maybe a 1-turn Grapple is all you really need.

On topic, Seed Bomb definitely seems like it's meant to work like Magic Stone did, or even Goodberry. To be cast and potentially shared with the rest of the party.
Off topic, if you want to see(hear) Seed Bomb used to great effect, the finale of CastParty's TSaDragon playthrough is an amazing example.

Our Druid used it in combination with Conjure Woodland Beings (sprites) to dish out 16d6 points of AoE damage (plus blind, grapple and/or difficult terrain) in a turn.

Cobra's Spit is poorly designed in my opinion, because it cannot be used until your next turn when you have another action to do so. I agree that it should be usable the turn you cast the spell. The nice thing about Cobra's Spit is that it is range self, so a wild shaped A5E Druid can cast it as spells that are range self or range touch can be cast while in a wild shape.

Except for Cobra's Spit being usable in wild shape, these other spells are much better in my opinion:

• Call Lightning: 3d10 lightning damage in 5' radius, save for half, inflicts damage the round it is cast, concentration 10 minutes.
• Moonbeam: 3d10 radiant cast at 3rd level in 5' radius, save for half, 120' range, damages the round it is cast, conc. 1 minute.
• Erupting Earth: 3d12 bludgeoning damage in 20' cube, save for half, 120' range, that ground becomes difficult terrain.
• Tidal Wave: 4d8 bludgeoning knocking targets prone, 30'x10' area, save for half and not prone, 120' range.

I don't think that being usable in wild shape is sufficient justification for the spell's design, particularly as Artificers also get the spell. So I would recommend errata that Cobra's Spit be usable on the turn it is cast.

As a 2nd level spell, Seed Bomb is good, doing 4d6 piercing in a 5' radius if creatures therein fail their Dexterity saving throw, and having an additional effect as well depending on the type of seed. I agree that it would be nice if you could throw a seed on the same turn as you cast a spell, but the spell does not require concentration, and you can pass the seeds to others to throw. So I think Seed Bomb is okay as written. There are combat situations where you are waiting for targets to get closer, and casting the spell then, or in other cases where you have a round of preparation time makes sense.

Toan Li said:

Seed Bomb definitely seems like it's meant to work like Magic Stone did, or even Goodberry. To be cast and potentially shared with the rest of the party.

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Edit: Magic Stone is a bonus action to cast, so it can be used the round it is cast. However, it is weak from caster level 5+ as it doesn't scale with level.

Other comparable cantrips to Magic Stone as they scale with level and are also 60' range:

• Create Bonfire: 1d8 fire damage, concentration 1 minute
• Frostbite: 1d6 cold damage and disadvantage on its next attack
• Produce Flame: 1d8 fire damage
• Starry Wisp: 1d8 radiant damage, emits dim light and cannot benefit from invisibility until end of your next turn.

The one minor advantage with Magic Stone is that it can be flung with a sling, which gives it long range out to 120', albeit disadvantage on the attack roll as it is long rang. Both the Magic Stone and Produce Flame cantrips are range touch and self respectively, so could be cast by an A5E Druid in wild shape form, if your DM allows you to then throw in that form - e.g., if you are in Ape form.

Tessarael said:

Except for Cobra's Spit being usable in wild shape, these other spells are much better in my opinion:

• Call Lightning: 3d10 lightning damage in 5' radius, save for half, inflicts damage the round it is cast, concentration 10 minutes.
• Moonbeam: 3d10 radiant cast at 3rd level in 5' radius, save for half, 120' range, damages the round it is cast, conc. 1 minute.
• Erupting Earth: 3d12 bludgeoning damage in 20' cube, save for half, 120' range, that ground becomes difficult terrain.
• Tidal Wave: 4d8 bludgeoning knocking targets prone, 30'x10' area, save for half and not prone, 120' range.

I don't think that being usable in wild shape is sufficient justification for the spell's design, particularly as Artificers also get the spell. So I would recommend errata that Cobra's Spit be usable on the turn it is cast.

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I see your point, but on the flip side Cobra's Spit requires a ranged spell attack, no save. So in the occasions you're likely to hit, or have advantage you deal 4d8 and can potentially even crit, and automatically poison the target (no save).
I'm not saying this balances out the subpar performance in terms of action economy though. I'm a bit torn on that too.

Tessarael said:

For similar reasons, Magic Stone is poorly designed and should be usable the round it is cast.

The one minor advantage with Magic Stone is that it can be flung with a sling, which gives it long range out to 120', albeit disadvantage on the attack roll as it is long rang. Both the Magic Stone and Produce Flame cantrips are range touch and self respectively, so could be cast by an A5E Druid in wild shape form, if your DM allows you to then throw in that form - e.g., if you are in Ape form.

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The difference is Magic Stone is technically usable the round it is cast, as a bonus action. It's also not an A5E spell, not even a 2024 spell, it was just the first example I thought of to compare to Seed Bomb. But if you have a Narrator letting you use that spell, it wouldn't be much to ask to cast Cobra Spit as a bonus action in a similar way. Or to allow an attack when you cast the spell.

Also, Magic Stones can always be given to that melee fighter that can never quite get in range. Some spells need to be looked at from a party perspective instead of an individual.