D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

Again I think that the Rules from 2000 and earlier were much harder than they are now and this allowed DMs who didn't read the rule books heavily to play harder than a game expects and allows to learn DMs and power hungry DMs to justify the difficulty of their games.

I mean if the base game lets you kill a mid-level character on a single roll, it lets the lackadaisical DMs and the killer DMs off the hook when they do it

Its certainly true that not only was it easy to kill first and second level OD&D character, I think I'd argue it was sometimes hard not to. Though generally is was less forgiving than moderate level D&D, starting RuneQuest characters probably had better survivability than bottom-end D&D characters.
 

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I think people are arguing multiple things in the same thread.

...

  • Whether it was widespread (seen in many places). There, I think Thomas Shey is right that although it is not proof, seeing it referenced in A&E, show up in convention games, and be seen in multiple game groups not just within one's primary circle are certainly strong evidence towards the notion.
  • Whether it was commonplace, or an overall measure of how prevalent it was. There I think SableWyvern is right that the burden of proof is on the claimant, and we just don't have the information to solidly make a case.

This is, I think, an important distinction; as you say, I think I can feel confident that this behavior was widespread; whether that makes it commonplace is probably another question, and one hard to derive even from the kind of evidence I was mentioning. I'm not sure exactly where the line is, or whether that distinction is actually significant, but for someone who does its easy to end up effectively arguing different things.
 

Never said that.

I mean old school D&D rule was deadly and made PCs bumbling idiots. Rolling was bad until high levels.

So some Dms thought that was the point.
Some DMs fell into it.
And some DMs used that to control others (AKA you succeed when I want you to)
Your pretty much pointing a spotlight on the level of unjustified overcompensating present in 5e's pendulum swing trying to counter a perceived potential problem of ttrogs v 6-∆7 editions of d&d back by ensuring that PCs are pretty much incapable of failure and players encouraged to believe that the gm is barred from forcing failure or simply saying "no" over endlessly being expected to play no cards other than endlesslub saying"yes and" as some of the posts like 311 435 & others earlier in the thread unquestionably show.

∆ 5.24->5.14->4e tactics(?) revision ->4e->3.5->3.0->ad&d2e->potentially further back. Most of the current d&d players have never physically seen those old books in person let alone played them. Id wager that the same holds true about a statistically significant chink of folks enthusiastically wringing their hands in scorn over things that were printed or said in those editions about dealing with players harshly.
 

For the record, my position is and has consistently been that the sorts of bad GMs being discussed did exist, still exist, and can most likely be found in many different places.

The original claim I was disputing was the notion that once upon a time, running antagonistic and unfun games was the norm for most GMs and only rare GMs, well ahead of their time, were capable of identifying other ways to play. Along with this, I was disputing the notion that the majority of players would just accept antagonistic, unfun games and continue playing anyway. Finally, I was disputing the notion that recognising and calling out bad GMs is something we've only recently discovered how to do.

The idea that these sorts of GMs were the norm and accepted rests on the idea that people will just keep doing something they don't enjoy. I also note that someone running an antagonistic game that the players find fun is not a bad GM or running a bad game.

Based on the discussions I see online, my conclusion is that the main reason for most issues always was and remains a lack of communication and clear, shared expectations. In a social hobby, so many people are unwilling or unable to just talk to the people they're gaming with.
 

Your pretty much pointing a spotlight on the level of unjustified overcompensating present in 5e's pendulum swing trying to counter a perceived potential problem of ttrogs v 6-∆7 editions of d&d back by ensuring that PCs are pretty much incapable of failure and players encouraged to believe that the gm is barred from forcing failure or simply saying "no" over endlessly being expected to play no cards other than endlesslub saying"yes and" as some of the posts like 311 435 & others earlier in the thread unquestionably show.

∆ 5.24->5.14->4e tactics(?) revision ->4e->3.5->3.0->ad&d2e->potentially further back. Most of the current d&d players have never physically seen those old books in person let alone played them. Id wager that the same holds true about a statistically significant chink of folks enthusiastically wringing their hands in scorn over things that were printed or said in those editions about dealing with players harshly.


I'm not saying any of that.

I'm saying that from 0e to AD&D 2e, if the player rolled a d20,, they had a high chance of failure. And if the DM rolled, they had a high chance of killing the PCs. A PC needed a handful of levels before the game wasn't just murdering them from the jump.

Running the game straight made you a DM who was a PC killer. This is before Yes or No.

In order to not kill PCs, (1) players had to avoid playing the game in the book, (2) players had to roll well and run munchkin PCs, or (3) the DM had to actively help them survive.

2 and 3 are where the reputation of killer DMs was likely birthed. Because if you didn't let players run munchkins and didn't help them out, player's PCs would statistically die before they got good. You could be a killer DM by playing straight. This gave controlling people lots of power if DMing.

Antagonistic and Killer DMs were likely not the norm as it would be easy for most Dms to realize that if you play straight, the PCs are gonna die.
 

I'm not saying any of that.

I'm saying that from 0e to AD&D 2e, if the player rolled a d20,, they had a high chance of failure. And if the DM rolled, they had a high chance of killing the PCs. A PC needed a handful of levels before the game wasn't just murdering them from the jump.

Running the game straight made you a DM who was a PC killer. This is before Yes or No.

In order to not kill PCs, (1) players had to avoid playing the game in the book, (2) players had to roll well and run munchkin PCs, or (3) the DM had to actively help them survive.

2 and 3 are where the reputation of killer DMs was likely birthed. Because if you didn't let players run munchkins and didn't help them out, player's PCs would statistically die before they got good. You could be a killer DM by playing straight. This gave controlling people lots of power if DMing.
My experience was with MERP and Rolemaster, but fairly closely matches this.

The issue for us was that, not only was RM dangerous, the Middle Earth regional modules were not level-gated in any way. The sample adventure in the MERP book involved kids kidnapped by trolls, which 1st level PCs could not meaningfully oppose in combat. The random encounter tables had fell beasts, giants and other such creatures appearing and these were generally treated by me as combat encounters.

As a result, from when my first MERP campaign started at age 13 and for the next couple of years of play, there was regular PC turnover. As I had also not yet learned to be generous with "first time" experience multipliers, advancement was incredibly slow, and reaching level 2 was a huge achievement.

The thing is, after a couple of years of play like this (where we were all having fun, I might point out), we recognised that to continue having fun, some changes needed to be made. So we started a new campaign with characters at fifth level (this seemed almost like absurd power-gaming to us, but also an exciting change of pace) and I had clearly learned a bit about telegraphing threats, having encounters not automatically result in combat and the like, because, while there was still some PC turnover, that "high-level" campaign is the most memorable couple of years of play we had in our teenage years and the frequency of PC death was vastly lower than it had been.

And, again, this is why I cannot believe people in the past were somehow incapable of seeing past a few paragraphs by Gygax and working out for themselves what works for them and what doesn't. If my friends and I could manage this as 15 or 16 year olds, it really can't have been that hard.
 

I've been in two badly DMed games that I scooted out of after the first session, but I don't think I could call them Killer DMs.

I have had at least one player acquired in my group back in the early 90's who claimed their prior DM was a Killer DM, but I'd never seen the other DM's actual games to be 100% sure.

I also know of one other DM who couldn't get players at a local Con (again, in the 90's) because they had a reputation as a "Killer DM" and was proud of it (I talked to them as DM to DM). However, once again as I never saw them in action, I can't be 100% certain it was true, though that they certainly prided themself as being one ("I call it an unsuccessful game if at least one character isn't irreparably dead by the end of the adventure") and the fact they had enough of a reputation to not gain any players seemed pretty fair proof to me.
 

The original claim I was disputing was the notion that once upon a time, running antagonistic and unfun games was the norm for most GMs and only rare GMs, well ahead of their time, were capable of identifying other ways to play. Along with this, I was disputing the notion that the majority of players would just accept antagonistic, unfun games and continue playing anyway. Finally, I was disputing the notion that recognising and calling out bad GMs is something we've only recently discovered how to do.

There's a couple problems here.

1. "Antagonist and unfun." Many of the people involved in this did not feel those two terms went together, including a lot of players. They just thought a certain degree of antagonism, as long as long as it wasn't beyond bounds, was "how things were done". In part, this was because losing characters was almost unavoidable in OD&D as I referenced above; there was no unconsciousness threshold, and the hit point ranges for the first couple levels were so small for most characters that about the only way you could prevent character death was to have nothing that was threatening at all. This would have required sucking all the fun out of the game for the most part. As such it could be a pretty fine line between the two ends, and people were prone to tolerating a certain degree of falling off the edge, especially at the bottom end. As such the excessive GMs were thought of mostly as different in degree, not in kind.

2. The difference now is that modern GMs have a heck of a lot more tools to still provide challenges without skating over that line, and the focus of a lot of games is very, very different. As noted, before the entrance of the Dragonlance setting in the mid-80's, D&D particular tended to have a very, very different tone; even if people wanted games focused more toward high heroic games there just wasn't a lot of support for it. But that slowly crept in mechanically, and because of it, in how people tended to run games.

I really think its easy to understimate how much the very wargamey roots of D&D in particular impacted the way the game played for about the first decade. Antagonism wasn't viewed as a downside because that's what a lot of people coming to the game expected; the GM was providing a challenge for them, so of course he was going to be antagonistic. They only objected if it felt like he was abusing his power. The fact the presentation of the game sometimes muddied that, but it was that abuse that was resented, not the antagonism as such.

It was just that the more it swung into the "fantasy protagonists with dice" view, the harder it was to use that as the standard, so it progressively became less and less appreciated. And there's some remaining conflicts between those that can accept that and those that can't.
 

2 and 3 are where the reputation of killer DMs was likely birthed. Because if you didn't let players run munchkins and didn't help them out, player's PCs would statistically die before they got good. You could be a killer DM by playing straight. This gave controlling people lots of power if DMing.

Antagonistic and Killer DMs were likely not the norm as it would be easy for most Dms to realize that if you play straight, the PCs are gonna die.

Honestly, the usual solution was vaguely analogous to the "character funnel" idea. You went through a lot of low level PCs until some of them survived long enough to be a little more viable, and accumulated enough money to pay for raise dead for their friends. It just required a bit of working your way through the chaff at the bottom.

Basically, it wasn't that the PCs didn't die; you just went through a lot of PCs until you didn't. It was an odd process looking at it through the rear view mirror, but it more or less worked.
 

Honestly, the usual solution was vaguely analogous to the "character funnel" idea. You went through a lot of low level PCs until some of them survived long enough to be a little more viable, and accumulated enough money to pay for raise dead for their friends. It just required a bit of working your way through the chaff at the bottom.

Basically, it wasn't that the PCs didn't die; you just went through a lot of PCs until you didn't. It was an odd process looking at it through the rear view mirror, but it more or less worked.
I could see many people having their poorly rolled PCs hold the line and be the sacrifice for the PCs that rolled good stats or got some levels.

So a level 4 fighter might be standing on the back of 10 dead allies.

But from the outside, it looks like the DM killed 50-80% of the PCs with dozens of dead.
And i could see a ruthless DM using that to ruthlessly, antagonistically, unfairly, or not fun kill some PCs because it's a few of many.
 

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