D&D 5E 02/08/13 New playtest packet to released today. [Udate: PACKAGE OUT!][

[Li Shenron]

Legacy justifications aside, it is just way too good, and seems a ham-fisted way of representing this idea.

Shrugging off certain effects like poison or mental compulsions is fine, but this is overkill.

Also, I always felt the monk was supposed the guy who was good at 'resisting everything'.

I am not sure it is "too good". There are also other things at high levels that look unfairly good on paper, such as the Monk's suddenly getting 20 in all scores (much later than 13th level admittedly). But we know that ability scores will be very high to everyone at that point, so what looks broken may be not. Other characters may have advantage on several ST from a variety of sources, so it may end up that the Fighter's feature is great, but not broken.

 

[gyor]

Well, my point was that advantage doesn't really change things as much as the name implies. It is worth between 10-20 percentage points added to your success rate depending on how good your save bonus already is. It is roughly equivalent to a +2 mod to your crummy saves or +4 mod to your good saves.

I agree that this makes Str and likely Con saves rather easy for a fighter to make but, as an example, paladins get to add their charisma mod all their saves (including these) and that will likely be a +4 or +5 bonus, plus they are immune to disease and eventually fear. So I don't see this as out of line with other classes' defensive abilities.

That's not including stuff like lay on hands, the level 18 cd that restores 40 hp when the Paladin drops to zero, or Paladin spells, or cleansing circle which allows a Paladin to shake off negative conditions an amount of times equal to +charisma mod.

Now a Paladin won't get all those feature if he's not of the oath of devotion, but still Paladin's are really hard to put down.

 

[the Jester]

This just cherry-picks the most difficult save possible to justify the feature.

Rather than comparing the worst save against the best attack you can come up with, you'd be better off looking at all the monsters in the Bestiary a level 13+ Fighter might face. What are the implications of having advantage to all saving throws to resist their attacks? What are the implications of one class having advantage on all saves after level 13 within a party of other classes who lack such a power? Now that the Fighter has a hugely increased chance to resist everything (and everyone else doesn't), how does that affect the encounters and dangers you as a DM throw at your party?

There are good reasons for a high level fighter shrugging off many things. But everything?

But he won't shrug off everything. Advantage will help him shrug off things some of the time, but hardly all of the time.

I'm interested to see how it handles in play, to be honest.

 

[TwoSix]

T
There are good reasons for a high level fighter shrugging off many things. But everything?

Perhaps a better question is what sort of things should a fighter be particularly vulnerable to?

 

[Wulfgar76]

But he won't shrug off everything. Advantage will help him shrug off things some of the time, but hardly all of the time.

I'm interested to see how it handles in play, to be honest.

As a point of reference, there is a Level 9 Rogue (previous playtest) in my group. This rogue has Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and a 20 Dex. The combination makes him virtually immune to anything requiring a Dexterity save. Every damaging spell misses. Every breath weapon misses. Every trap.

Now I'm fine with it because he is a Rogue and Evasion is a well-known legacy ability, but the effect on the game is profound.

Now comes along a power that gives a class not just Uncanny Dodge (Dex saves), but Uncanny Everything (all saves).

But yes, it needs to be thoroughly tested for sure.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Perhaps a better question is what sort of things should a fighter be particularly vulnerable to?

If you want to look to past editions, a fighter was particularly good at resisting attacks on Fortitude (Con saves) only, and not as good at dodging (Reflex/Dex) and resisting mental attacks (Will/Wis).

I dont remember what the 2nd Ed. Fighter's saves looked like, but I expect he was good at resisting physical things like poison and worse at resisting magic and dodging things.

In no edition did the fighter possess a massive save advantage over all other classes.

 

[TwoSix]

If you want to look to past editions, a fighter was particularly good at resisting attacks on Fortitude (Con saves) only, and not as good at dodging (Reflex/Dex) and resisting mental attacks (Will/Wis).

I dont remember what the 2nd Ed. Fighter's saves looked like, but I expect he was good at resisting physical things like poison and worse at resisting magic.

In no edition did the fighter possess a massive save advantage over all other classes.

Actually, in earlier editions, the Fighter (or all classes in the Warrior group for 2e) had the best overall saves of any class.

Plus, it isn't really a massive advantage, although it is a great ability. If your save chance is crappy, it makes it slightly less crappy. (a 20% success rate goes to 36%) If your save chance was already good, it just makes it extremely reliable. (a 20% failure rate becomes a 4% failure rate) Plus, it gives the fighter a strong defensive niche, which I think is good for flavor.

 

[Iosue]

In no edition did the fighter possess a massive save advantage over all other classes.

Except for OD&D, 1e, and 2e. Granted he was only the best of the human classes in BXCMI, because the Dwarf and Halfling classes had the best saves there.

At level 17, when the fighter tops out his saves (two levels faster than the cleric, and four levels faster than the magic-user and thief), the 1e fighter has the best Paralyzation/Death Magic save -- the Cleric has to go to level 19 to beat it...by one point. He's got the best Petrification/Polymorph save, period. He's tied with the Magic-User for best Rod/Staff/Wand save. Both Magic-user and Thief have to go to level 21 to beat him (by one point for the thief, two points for the magic-user). He's got by far the best Breath Weapon save, no one comes close no matter how high they level. And again he ties with the magic-user for the best Spell save, until the magic-user gets to level 21, where he beats the fighter by two points. This is also the fighter's worst save -- he needs to roll a 6 or better (70% chance of success).

In TSR D&D, saves were the fighter's thing. He advanced them faster and better than any other class. Even at the end, when everyone's over level 21, he's first or second in all saves, and he doesn't lag behind the leaders by more than 2.

So I've got no problem with D&DN fighters being save machines. Heck, after reading ppaladin123's math breakdown, I don't think their save abilities are strong enough.

 

[Stalker0]

I am not sure it is "too good". There are also other things at high levels that look unfairly good on paper, such as the Monk's suddenly getting 20 in all scores (much later than 13th level admittedly).

Monks no longer get this in the latest packet.

 

[Wulfgar76]

In TSR D&D, saves were the fighter's thing. He advanced them faster and better than any other class. Even at the end, when everyone's over level 21, he's first or second in all saves, and he doesn't lag behind the leaders by more than 2.

So I've got no problem with D&DN fighters being save machines. Heck, after reading ppaladin123's math breakdown, I don't think their save abilities are strong enough.

I don't remember the older editions well enough to make comparisons, but in 3rd Fighters had good Fort Saves, and that was it.

As far as I can tell, the D&D Next Fighter has the best (or among the best): hit points, armor, durability, attack bonus and melee damage.

Adding in advantage to all saves seems a little much.