D&D 5E 02/08/13 New playtest packet to released today. [Udate: PACKAGE OUT!][

[DMZ2112]

I don't know how relevant this is to this argument mechanically, but it feels on-topic thematically.

I've always felt like at some point in D&D (possibly the very beginning), fighters started getting short shrift because they are baseline and every other class is a fighter plus something. Clerics are the most glaring example, but rogues do not suffer overmuch for their weapon and armor restrictions. Wizards are often described as "squishy," but there's no reason why a high-level wizard should ever be easier to hit than a high-level fighter. Even at first level, a wizard is not /necessarily/ doing less damage in melee than a fighter.

I've often thought that the biggest disservice D&D design does for fighters is not anything about the fighter's design at all, but rather about the other classes. For as long as I can remember, the fighter has gotten better bonuses in combat, but all the other classes still get /bonuses/. Even the wizard. Why is that the case? Why isn't "good at hand-to-hand and ranged combat" the fighter's "thieves' abilities," or "channel divinity," or "spells per day?"

Why do the other classes get to be fighters plus?

 

[Obryn]

I LOVE Indomitable. As others have said, it calls back to the 1st Edition and 2nd Edition fighter. That was one of the changes that ruined 3rd Edition the most. In earlier editions, higher level characters and monsters made saves easier. In third, they both gave the Wizards more powerful spells, and made it harder for things to save against them. Next has to be reigned back from 3rd a bit, and I think this is a great spot.

Agreed. I think Fighters should have some of the best defenses in the game. I almost cheered when I saw "indomitable." It's one of my favorite parts of the new playtest.

-O

 

[Li Shenron]

Also, every unique Fighter (or any other) class feature at a certain level, is something that promotes advancing in that class further, whether the PC is single-class or already multiclass. We know that it's always particularly hard to come out with Fighter-only class features, because sooner or later someone is going to whine "why can't my Paladin/Ranger/Rogue learn the same thing?".

Thus I overall welcome this powerful Fighter-only feature (althout Barbarians get it too, but only during Rage). I am happy to have it in this packet, but of course I expect they'll take it away later...

 

[Wulfgar76]

'Indomitable is awesome! I love the new invincible fighter!'

Okay, but realize the effects of this ripple across the whole game. A character with high AC, lots of hit points, and strong defenses against magic and everything else, is a very unattractive target for the DM. Without 4e-style tricks to make the enemy engage the Fighter, Monsters and Magic Users will ignore him and put the pressure on other party members who are not so invincible.

Instead of such a pervasively powerful ability, I like the idea suggested of using his Action Surge to make saving throws on his turn. For me this is a much more elegant and evocative way of representing 'a teeth-gritting surge of determined mettle to shrug off an ill effect'.

 

[Obryn]

'Indomitable is awesome! I love the new invincible fighter!'

Okay, but realize the effects of this ripple across the whole game. A character with high AC, lots of hit points, and strong defenses against magic and everything else, is a very unattractive target for the DM. Without 4e-style tricks to make the enemy engage the Fighter, Monsters and Magic Users will ignore him and put the pressure on other party members who are not so invincible.

Instead of such a pervasively powerful ability, I like the idea suggested of using his Action Surge to make saving throws on his turn. For me this is a much more elegant and evocative way of representing 'a teeth-gritting surge of determined mettle to shrug off an ill effect'.

There's always the Tactical Fighter feat, Knight path, etc. Also, their damage potential should make them a big threat that enemies can't ignore.

The action surge idea is rather weak and limited. I love the idea of fighters having magic resistance.

 

[Warbringer]

"pervasively powerful ability"

Keep on saying it, but its not that powerful... Great for situations where there defenses really sucked, less impact on strong defenses:

Consider target DC20, the first is the bonus, the second chance of failure, third chance of failure with indomitable (1,000 simulations)

+3, 79%, 63%
+8, 55%, 30%
+12, 35%, 11%

Its good, not game breaking

 

[TheRustyOne]

There's always the Tactical Fighter feat, Knight path, etc. Also, their damage potential should make them a big threat that enemies can't ignore.

The action surge idea is rather weak and limited. I love the idea of fighters having magic resistance.

And just like the Legendary's Autosaves, Magic wielding creatures would just take this into account, and have to Save or Die him two or three times instead of one.
Let's learn some lessons from all editions.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Keep on saying it, but its not that powerful...

I don't remember the exact math behind advantage, but I read on this board that it was roughly equal to a +4 bonus?

+4 to all saves seems powerful to me.

 

[TheRustyOne]

And what's more powerful, +4 to saves or Meteor Swarm and a bunch of rituals?

 

[Sonny]

And just like the Legendary's Autosaves, Magic wielding creatures would just take this into account, and have to Save or Die him two or three times instead of one.
Let's learn some lessons from all editions.

Since did magic using creatures have metagame knowledge on saving throws and abilities that effect them? Or when have they actually done dice simulations on them?