Level Up (A5E) 1 level fighter dip too easy?

xiphumor

Legend
This should be baseline. But I would go one step further...

You should use the worst progression when defining maneuver progression, not the best progression. You multiclass to be more versatile, not to multiply power. That's the whole point of multiclassing IMO. Single class should always be more competent in their niche than multiclassed characters.
The ideal would be a table like spellcasters have that defines multiclass progression, but we're stuck with RAW, and I don’t think new material should deviate from it too much. But yeah, a Herald stands to gain way too much from a single level of Fighter.
 

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You should use the worst progression when defining maneuver progression, not the best progression. You multiclass to be more versatile, not to multiply power. That's the whole point of multiclassing IMO. Single class should always be more competent in their niche than multiclassed characters.
the biggest problem with this idea is that it leads to odd edge cases where you might actually just straight up lose the ability to use maneuvers you could use before because you took a level in a class that, at that point, would only have access to maneuvers of a lower degree then you already have (the easiest example that comes to mind is something like fighter 17/rogue 1, where suddenly you can't use 5th degree maneuvers anymore because rogues can only get up to 4th degree).
The ideal would be a table like spellcasters have that defines multiclass progression, but we're stuck with RAW, and I don’t think new material should deviate from it too much. But yeah, a Herald stands to gain way too much from a single level of Fighter.
i'm not entirely sure why they DIDN'T do this, because RAW (as we're finding out) it's a mess. maneuver progression between classes is basically already unified anyway - from the adventurer's guide, heralds and rogues (and savants, but they get explicit declarations from an optional feature and not a maneuver progression table, so i'm not entirely sure if they count) are 2/3 martials (they end up at ~13th level fighter maneuver wise - they're locked at each degree of maneuver for 1.5 times that of a fighter), fighters and marshals are full martials (marshals don't have maneuvers at 1st level, like the herald and rogue, but also like the herald and rogue this doesn't actually impact its maneuver progression), and every other martial is a full martial minus 1 level. the math is a little gross, but it's workable. i can even write something up right now:

"Your highest degree of maneuver is determined by adding all the class levels you have from classes with the Combat Maneuvers feature, but some classes do not count as highly as others when determining your highest degree of maneuver available.
Your class levels in the fighter and marshal classes count fully towards your highest degree of maneuver available.
Your class levels in the adept, berserker, and ranger classes also count fully towards your highest degree of maneuver, except for the first level in each class - your effective level in such classes for the purpose of determining the highest degree of maneuver you can take is thus one less then the level you have in that class (minimum 0).
Two thirds of your levels in the herald and rogue classes count towards determining your highest degree of maneuver."
this is basically just the spellcasting levels section but for maneuvers. the multiclassing table would just be the fighter's.
and for future proofing:
"Future classes or subclasses may have different rates of progression for determining the highest degree of maneuver you can take. To determine this progression, look at the stretch of levels for which the class' maximum degree of maneuver is second, and divide the same stretch of levels from the fighter by this number. For example, the herald can access only up to second degree maneuvers for 6 levels, while the fighter has this restriction for only 4. The herald's progression is thus 4/6, or 2/3. Additionally, look at the overall progression to see if the progression of maneuvers is delayed at all, and if so, subtract the number of levels by which progression is delayed from class levels for that class when calculating its total level BEFORE applying the overall rate of progression."

so the fighter 3/herald 10 example from the book using these rules would be effectively a level 9 fighter (fighter 3 + herald (10*(2/3)) or fighter 3 + herald 6) with access to 3rd degree maneuvers, not level 13 with access to 4th degree maneuvers (compared to a herald 13 being equivalent to a level 8 fighter with 3rd degree maneuvers). this makes a lot more sense to me, and it isn't really that much more complicated then figuring out caster levels.
 

xiphumor

Legend
the biggest problem with this idea is that it leads to odd edge cases where you might actually just straight up lose the ability to use maneuvers you could use before because you took a level in a class that, at that point, would only have access to maneuvers of a lower degree then you already have (the easiest example that comes to mind is something like fighter 17/rogue 1, where suddenly you can't use 5th degree maneuvers anymore because rogues can only get up to 4th degree).

i'm not entirely sure why they DIDN'T do this, because RAW (as we're finding out) it's a mess. maneuver progression between classes is basically already unified anyway - from the adventurer's guide, heralds and rogues (and savants, but they get explicit declarations from an optional feature and not a maneuver progression table, so i'm not entirely sure if they count) are 2/3 martials (they end up at ~13th level fighter maneuver wise - they're locked at each degree of maneuver for 1.5 times that of a fighter), fighters and marshals are full martials (marshals don't have maneuvers at 1st level, like the herald and rogue, but also like the herald and rogue this doesn't actually impact its maneuver progression), and every other martial is a full martial minus 1 level. the math is a little gross, but it's workable. i can even write something up right now:

"Your highest degree of maneuver is determined by adding all the class levels you have from classes with the Combat Maneuvers feature, but some classes do not count as highly as others when determining your highest degree of maneuver available.
Your class levels in the fighter and marshal classes count fully towards your highest degree of maneuver available.
Your class levels in the adept, berserker, and ranger classes also count fully towards your highest degree of maneuver, except for the first level in each class - your effective level in such classes for the purpose of determining the highest degree of maneuver you can take is thus one less then the level you have in that class (minimum 0).
Two thirds of your levels in the herald and rogue classes count towards determining your highest degree of maneuver."
this is basically just the spellcasting levels section but for maneuvers. the multiclassing table would just be the fighter's.
and for future proofing:
"Future classes or subclasses may have different rates of progression for determining the highest degree of maneuver you can take. To determine this progression, look at the stretch of levels for which the class' maximum degree of maneuver is second, and divide the same stretch of levels from the fighter by this number. For example, the herald can access only up to second degree maneuvers for 6 levels, while the fighter has this restriction for only 4. The herald's progression is thus 4/6, or 2/3. Additionally, look at the overall progression to see if the progression of maneuvers is delayed at all, and if so, subtract the number of levels by which progression is delayed from class levels for that class when calculating its total level BEFORE applying the overall rate of progression."

so the fighter 3/herald 10 example from the book using these rules would be effectively a level 9 fighter (fighter 3 + herald (10*(2/3)) or fighter 3 + herald 6) with access to 3rd degree maneuvers, not level 13 with access to 4th degree maneuvers (compared to a herald 13 being equivalent to a level 8 fighter with 3rd degree maneuvers). this makes a lot more sense to me, and it isn't really that much more complicated then figuring out caster levels.
I think this would work better if we made an official table. However, the thing that bothers me the most is that Adepts, Rangers, and Berserkers lose levels in DIFFERENT PLACES. And Berserkers even do a weird thing where they catch up again later.
 
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Faolyn

(she/her)
The easiest thing to do might be to have a paragraph that says something like: "At 1st, 5th, 9th, and 17th level, you gain a maneuver from Unending Wheel or one other tradition of your choice. You are not otherwise proficient in that tradition, unless you have gained that proficiency from another class. At 1st and 5th level, you may pick a 1st-degree maneuver. At 9th and 14th level, you may pick a 1st- or 2nd-degree maneuver. At 17th level, you may pick a 3rd-degree maneuver.

That way, you don't need the table and you can reduce everything down to two paragraphs: this one and the one that says how many exertion you gain.
 

I understand what you’re going for, but the length of this description is the strongest argument against it. The second best argument is that because they went with asymmetrical maneuver progression (which I know they did intentionally but have yet to receive a compelling reason as to why), it still leads to edge cases. E.g., the Adept is a full martial by this metric, but they fall behind the Fighter later.
it's not that much longer then the spellcasting levels section until you add the future proofing section which i only really added with your warlock subclass in mind since it was being discussed.

but yeah, looking at it again, you're right - i hadn't noticed before but both the adept and berserker have progressions that differ for seemingly no good reason. the adept gets 2 levels of 1st degree maneuvers and 5 levels of 3rd, while berserkers get 3 levels of 3rd degree and 5 levels of 4th. i give up.
 

xiphumor

Legend
it's not that much longer then the spellcasting levels section until you add the future proofing section which i only really added with your warlock subclass in mind since it was being discussed.

but yeah, looking at it again, you're right - i hadn't noticed before but both the adept and berserker have progressions that differ for seemingly no good reason. the adept gets 2 levels of 1st degree maneuvers and 5 levels of 3rd, while berserkers get 3 levels of 3rd degree and 5 levels of 4th. i give up.
I realized that, and tried to edit my post before you saw it for that reason :)

Taking a step back a bit, I have to assume the designers looked at the worst possible consequences of the maneuver multiclassing system and said “Eh, not the worst.” I suppose part of my trouble is that I don’t have a strong sense of the power levels of each maneuver yet, so I can’t say whether I concur, but I’d love to hear someone expound on exactly how much worse a 1 fighter / 19 herald is than a 20 herald.
 

I realized that, and tried to edit my post before you saw it for that reason :)

Taking a step back a bit, I have to assume the designers looked at the worst possible consequences of the maneuver multiclassing system and said “Eh, not the worst.” I suppose part of my trouble is that I don’t have a strong sense of the power levels of each maneuver yet, so I can’t say whether I concur, but I’d love to hear someone expound on exactly how much worse a 1 fighter / 19 herald is than a 20 herald.
I'm running circles around ya!

but seriously, i think the part that gets me the most is that there was seemingly no reason NOT to just have maneuver progression be unified ala spell slots and have multiclassing maneuvers work based on that, but they just...didn't.

1 fighter/19 herald is...definitely something. you get 5th level maneuvers AND proficiency in any two martial traditions (AND an exertion pool on top of spending spell slots for exertion, which is really just insult to injury at this point), which let you get access to such abilities as:
  • World-Shaking Strike: 30 foot aoe that does weapon damage and knocks targets prone on a failed strength save. 30 foot radius is HUGE.
  • Horizon Shot: can you see them? you can hit them. AND you can smite, because smiting isn't restricted to melee attacks anymore.
  • Blinding Strikes: until the start of your next turn, EVERYONE you deal damage to is rendered blind. EVERYONE. NO SAVE UNTIL THEIR TURN COMES AROUND. LASTS UNTIL THEY SAVE. oh, yeah, and smite.
  • Tsunami Dash: dash. make a melee attack with a dual-wielding or finesse weapon against up to 6 creatures you become adjacent to. dump all your smites in a turn, because i guess the herald needed to be EVEN BETTER at novaing.
  • United We Stand: let the rogue sneak attack again, PLUS smite, PLUS deal damage based on your proficiency bonus, PLUS knock prone, PLUS IMPOSE STUN. given, a certain number of attacks need to land for the extra effects, but THE ENTIRE PARTY CAN LAY INTO THEM (if they're within melee).
  • Furious Barrage: tsunami dash, but you don't need to dash and each attack can hit the same person AND you're not limited by weapon type (though you do need to hit to get the next attack). sure, attacks against you have advantage for a round, but that just gives you an excuse to press the attack and get a better chance of getting all those attacks.
  • Perfect Assault: THIS. THIS is ABSOLUTELY BUSTED for a herald. if you don't know what perfect assault is...you get 2 attacks plus twice your regular attacks (so 6 total for a fighter 1/herald 19), AND you can replace each attack with a combat maneuver that doesn't grant more then one attack. normally the drawback is you get a level of fatigue and your exertion pool hits 0, so most martials that get 5th degree maneuvers can only use this once, and adepts MIGHT be able to use it twice due to the option that lets them recover 1d4 exertion as an action once per long rest. but HERALDS can swap SPELL SLOTS for EXERTION POINTS. YOU WANT SOME FUN? run down your exertion pool you get from fighter 1 to ~3 points. perfect assault. spend a second level or higher spell slot. perfect assault again. you can keep doing this so long as you don't doom yourself (or, hell, you can doom yourself if you want, i'm not your dad). you don't suffer the negative effects of the fatigue until the fight ends (see page 449 of the adventurer's guide). this can get you 6 world-shaking strikes or horizon shots a turn for up to 6 turns in a fight with no real downside (unless you want to doom yourself. then it's 7 turns). i guess you could also do 6 united we stands in a turn, but...nobody who wants to take your offer is gonna have a reaction by the 3rd go, so i don't know why you'd bother. but yeah, just absolutely shred the boss like he's paper mache. make the entire rest of the party a footnote.
so...yeah. 1 fighter/19 herald seems...kinda insane. i don't know for certain if this is worth your herald capstone, but i'd guess it probably is. you can also pull any of this off with up to 1 fighter/15 herald...so if you want to take up to 4 levels in something else that you think will make up for losing the herald capstone, be my guest. you'll still kill god with 6 perfect assaults in a combat.

edit: i should note i haven't gotten a chance to play LU, so maybe...MAYBE...this isn't as insane as i think it is. but i kind of doubt that.
edit 2: also, the maneuvers perfect assault lets you do are PROBABLY supposed to cost exertion, so 6 world-shaking strikes or horizon shots 6 turns in a row PROBABLY isn't doable...but, for one, you can get pretty close with herald spell slots, and either way even without that the maneuver is still absolutely insane on a herald just due to the attack output.
 
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  • Perfect Assault: THIS. THIS is ABSOLUTELY BUSTED for a herald. if you don't know what perfect assault is...you get 2 attacks plus twice your regular attacks (so 6 total for a fighter 1/herald 19),
I have a quick question on this. I may be misreading it, but I think the amount of attacks you quoted isn't accurate. According to what I'm reading for Perfect Assault it says " When you activate this maneuver, you take the Attack action and make two weapon attacks, as well as double the number of additional attacks granted by Extra Attack." A 1st Fighter/19th Herald would only have 1 Extra attack (gained at Herald 5th) since only Fighter/Marshals stack for extra attacks. Based on that shouldn't it be a total of 4 attacks (2 base plus double the extra attack) or am I missing something else?

Still an insane combo either way though.
 

xiphumor

Legend
F0D5772D-A853-4D8D-97E1-A98EA048AB4F.jpeg
 


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