1 min per level spells and why they suck

[Elder-Basilisk]

In 3e, we regularly saw (in published modules and living campaigns at least) monsters or NPCs with tons of short term buffs going up against PCs who had to cast theirs in combat (because they didn't know when the NPCs would show up and the NPCs always cast their spells just before the PCs arrived--whenever they arrived).

So I expect that it won't be any different in 3.5 except that now the PCs won't be able to prepare for anything in advance.

If you think about it from the evil guy perspective, the new durations will make adventures more interesting. I mean, in 3E, was there any point to a lair of evil humans that didn't use magic? They would be toast! Conversely, 3E wizard or cleric evil guys could be insanely buffed up 24 hours a day.

Very well balancing.

 

[Fenes 2]

Hey, that's a great idea - let's play with characters built with 15 points, no spells or magical items, and pointy sticks for weapons, because, after all, the DM is going to hold our hand the whole way.
There's no need to be self-sufficient and try to overcome challenges by applying your own resources effectively. It's so much more fun to just hope the DM is nice enough to pull the punches.

Stuck in that "overcoming challenges mode"? Feel that your DM is pulling his punches?

LOL. Any DM is pulling his punches, or any party would be dead. If you want to kill off a party you can do it - you are the DM.

If you manage to anger a wealthy merchant at level 5 and the DM does not send the level 20 uber-assassin the merchant hired with half his fortune after you but the CR 5 group of thugs then the DM is pulling his punches. If your group of level 6 PCs has been angering the CR 14 lich for 3 adventures and is still only facing CR 6 encounters and not a CR 14 hit squad then he is pulling his punches.

I get sick of people trying to tell me facing a party with appropriate challenges (and that is what the whole CR system is about, helping the DM to balance encounters) is holding the partys hand.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I predict that the changes to buff spell duration will be one of the most controversial changes. It won't get more jarring than this, folks, at least not as far as I've seen. Considering that I fully like 95% of the changes, this is 2% of the remainder that I'm still undecided on.

Having read the 3.5 rules, it's clear to me that there is a concerted effort to emphasize class abilities over always-active bonuses derived from spells and magic items. Thus, skill-boosting items are toned way down (or increased in cost), and several spells that lasted for a long time in 3e are reduced as well. I happen to really like this trend as a DM, because no longer will everyone with spells and/or magic items out-rogue the rogue. As a player, though, I've flinched once or twice at the change in power level. I'm coming to grips with it, though, especially if everyone (PCs, NPCs, and monsters) are on a level playing field.

Another 2% of that remainder results from spells that I think have cool story uses, but which have been reduced in duration to limit their combat usage. Take polymorph, which has been talked about by Ed Stark. Now that it lasts one minute per level, it doesn't work as a disguise spell so well, and the PCs can't change into birds to go scout. I'll miss that, so there may be a house rule in my game (polymorph forms under a 4 str last for 10 minutes per level, not 1 minute.) We'll have to see.

Overall, I think the change in bull strength's duration is going to be a good thing. No longer will clerics cast all of their 2nd lvl spells at the beginning of each day. I'm okay with that.

Any chance you can let me know if they will cut the duration on Delay Poison too?

Tzarevitch

 

[Zogg]

Perhaps a good houserule for 1-minute spells would be to add the (Int/Wis/Cha) modifier- it won't bring the spell back to it's old glory, but it will lengthen it a bit.

For instance, a 5th level Cleric with a WIS of 16 would cast bull's strength and it would last:

1+3 (WIS modifier)= 4 x 5 levels = 20 minutes.

I think this is much better than just 5 minutes, but obviously not the same as 5 hours. Of course, 10 minutes/level could work too. I just think 1 minute/level is far too short for a buff spell of this type.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've been using 25 point buy, and IME the higher CR monsters are usually weak.

Not just fiends. It's sad how so many monsters have such a weak Will save, for instance, and it's worse when you see a CR 15 monster with an AC of 16 or so

 

[Pielorinho]

We're talking in our group about using the weasel compromise for these spells.

Duration: one hour/level until engaging in dynamic, strenuous activity; then 1 scene.

Although this wouldn't work for everyone, I think it'll work for us. Someone who wants to go on a forced march can cast endurance and keep it up all day. But if they want to make a fort save vs. poison, or benefit from increased hit points, the spell will end at the end of the scene.

We might change it slightly, so that "1 scene" = 1 minute/level. We'll figure it out when we see the rules.

Daniel

 

[ForceUser]

Well, my knee-jerk reaction to the change is "sigh, there went my favorite part of my cleric." Having had Extend Spell for three levels now, extended bull's strength, endurance, greater magic weapon, magic vestment etc etc. have become a very important part of my character. Character-defining, you might even say.

When my DM switches to 3.5 I'll have to adjust my thinking and start investing in magic items. Seriously, the best part of being a 3E cleric was the fact that I could buff the heck out of myself, thus superceding the need to spend money on magic item creation, be a powerful combatant, and still heal on top of that.

All I will say is this: if the 3.5 changes relegate my cleric to the back ranks due to massive nerfing of buff durations, I will probably retire the character. Having had prime rib, I can't settle for a hot dog.

 

[Blood Jester]

Let me add a short "TESTIFY MARK!" to all this, he's done a good job of speaking what I feel.

 

[mmu1]

Stuck in that "overcoming challenges mode"? Feel that your DM is pulling his punches?

LOL. Any DM is pulling his punches, or any party would be dead. If you want to kill off a party you can do it - you are the DM.

If you manage to anger a wealthy merchant at level 5 and the DM does not send the level 20 uber-assassin the merchant hired with half his fortune after you but the CR 5 group of thugs then the DM is pulling his punches. If your group of level 6 PCs has been angering the CR 14 lich for 3 adventures and is still only facing CR 6 encounters and not a CR 14 hit squad then he is pulling his punches.

I get sick of people trying to tell me facing a party with appropriate challenges (and that is what the whole CR system is about, helping the DM to balance encounters) is holding the partys hand.

Yeah, not reacting to everything the party does in the most extreme and absurd fashion possible - that's the definition of "pulling punches", you hit the nail of the head there. Because, of course, DMing is really about trying to kill the party. There's got to be a pony around here someplace...

 

[Fenes 2]

When my DM switches to 3.5 I'll have to adjust my thinking and start investing in magic items. Seriously, the best part of being a 3E cleric was the fact that I could buff the heck out of myself, thus superceding the need to spend money on magic item creation, be a powerful combatant, and still heal on top of that.

All I will say is this: if the 3.5 changes relegate my cleric to the back ranks due to massive nerfing of buff durations, I will probably retire the character. Having had prime rib, I can't settle for a hot dog.

I had to nerf the last cleric from a player that wanted to play "a powerful combattant, buff the heck out of himself and cast spells on top of that". The player did not return, and I am glad for it. That mentality did not sit well with me or my group.